Leadership Lessons in a Dynamic World of Work

Rachel Cossar: Everyone, and welcome to another episode of conversations in the future of work. I am your host, Rachel Kosser, and I am thrilled to have a phenomenal guest and one of my mentors and champions on today’s episode. We’ll be focusing on leadership the challenges leaders are facing things that leaders might need to be thinking about, and then also things that aspiring leaders can keep in mind as they’re trying to develop their own leadership qualities. And so with that, I would like to introduce Janet Macaluso, our incredible guest today. Janet, over to you. Hello, everyone. And, Rachel, thank you for having me.

Janet Macaluso: So I’m Janet Macaluso. I am a regenerative leadership coach and business coach. And, I spent 27 years in global corporate organizations and over the re the great regeneration I regenerated myself and now I’m on my own, the founder of learning to lead. Amazing.

Rachel Cossar: It’s so wonderful to have you on the show. I feel like we both went through such big transformations around the same time, and so I’m excited to you know, hear some of some of what you have to say. Great. Me too. So the the first question, you know, I I don’t mean to start with the challenges, but I’m just curious, like, what are some of the challenges that the leaders you’re working with are facing and and how are they How have they evolved really over the past few years?

Janet Macaluso: Well, I think most people know what the challenges are. You just look around in the hybrid work in the organizations. Lot of disengagement huge percentage of people are thinking about leaving their companies. And then you look at the world, and you you are now a mother raising children and you’re thinking, how how is this world going to be thriving? For the next generation and the generation after that. So there’s lots of those challenges going on. I’ve spent a lot of my years focusing on kind of cookie cutter, get the gurus in, what are the best practices. Let’s do 360 degree feedback to give them tell them what they need to do with all of those changes. But really where I am now in my own evolution, maturity, I would say that it’s not those changes, challenges are gonna come and go. The thing I would say the difference that makes the difference is the state of being and the quality of thinking and discernment that we bring to address with all of those challenges and opportunities that we face. That’s the difference. There’s no playbook There’s no textbook that you can say, oh, wait a minute. Let me look this up. The challenges never existed before. That we’re dealing with. So how do we have presence of mind and thinking quality to address them and make the right decisions. Right.

Rachel Cossar: Do you I mean, do you feel like a a playbook was ever relevant? Like, No.

Janet Macaluso: I think there’s some to look at, but what I see and actually, what’s interesting is I have a client who is a college professor. And she says that these young students entering college, they kind of fold their arms and say, you’re the expert. Tell me the way. And so automatically, we often differ. If you think about it, all our lives There’s some there’s been someone older and wiser. The authority figure telling us where to go? How to behave all of that? What to eat? And so we automatically unconsciously now kind of look for the answer. And what I’m trying to do now is break that kind of automatic pilot, invisible assumption we’re not even aware of and saying, wait a minute. This is new. This brand new context, brand new people I’m dealing with. Maybe I did it again in the last company. But this company and these people in this team and this context are unique in this moment And how do we address that in this moment? That’s what I’m saying is the state of being and don’t look at a playbook for the answer. Right.

Rachel Cossar: And I feel like, you know, the next the next question we’ll deal with AI specifically, but especially with AI tools and some of these. Because I would imagine a lot of people are now turning to AI as the authority in some ways. And, like, oh, well, I asked AI and AI said this. Therefore, it must be true. And it’s like, oh, wow. No. Like, we all need to take a step back, as you said, and start to really think critically about our context, our situation, ourselves, and the people around us. Right? Mhmm. Exactly.

Janet Macaluso: By the way, I use AI if I’m looking for a thesaurus or I’m looking for something that I don’t have to go in in my books and find something short. It really is speedy, and I love that. It because it’s just like one little blip to get me to the next thing, but I don’t rely on AI to replace the thinking and the quality of thinking. Because otherwise, we’re replacing that authority figure, the parent, the teacher, the coach, the professor, the boss with AI. Do we really wanna do that? Right. Totally.

Rachel Cossar: And so on that note, right, like, what are the benefits and weaknesses that you’re seeing in terms of incorporating AI in the workplace?

Janet Macaluso: You know, it’s funny because this week, I had a call from an HR business partner, and she said, we have this high potential financial advisor, we see him moving up the ranks really quickly to be a partner. He was in a Zoom call making a sale, and he lost the sale to the competitor. And so the HR, our person was asking me, you know, I’ve seen him, have these Zoom calls and his presence doesn’t kind of exhibit confidence and competence. That is needed for the this potential client to invest 1,000,000 of dollars in his fund So I actually, told her to see if there’s a way she could get him to go to your website and take that assessment. Right. So I see that as a real, benefit, if you will, of using AI in the workplace real time for you to look in the mirror real time and see, you know, I lost that sale. I didn’t wanna lose that sale. I have all the competence maybe even more than the competitor. Was there any little thing that I could have done to improve my odds. I think AI comes in here. What do you think about that? Oh, totally. I mean, that’s like a perfect example.

Rachel Cossar: And I I I I love that example for a few reasons. I think when we’re dealing with, as you said, these high potential, very talented leaders in the making, it’s hard to sometimes give them feedback on things like their presence. And what we found is that using AI as the more objective, coach can actually help people feel a little safer in receiving that feedback because the AI is just a mirror. The AI reflects behaviors that you’re doing and says, look. You did these things. Though, like, these specific behaviors, whether it’s where you’re looking, the way you’re using hand gestures or not using hand gestures, your posture, etcetera, All of those behaviors can influence things like perceived trustworthiness and rapport. Right? You said it yourself. If you’re trying to get a client to invest possibly 1,000,000 of dollars. Like, you have to show up as the confident and competent partner that they’re looking Right? Absolutely.

Janet Macaluso: You know, I had another example of this is, years ago when my child was little, we needed to go to physical therapy, occupational therapy. And the this is my firstborn son. Love him dearly. We go there. And the physical therapist says to me in this kind of wishy washy way you could do this and you could do this. And I was kind of like a very, neurotic first time, mom wanting to do the very best. I did not have confidence in doing what she said. Now she could have had all of the confidence in the degrees. It could have been the right thing. I didn’t feel like I wanted to follow her. So to your point. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No.

Rachel Cossar: I think we’ve been pleasantly surprised with how people have taken to the AI based feedback. And our our view is always and and this might speak to some of the weaknesses of AI, but our view is always that AI should be used as a tool to help humans improve and to help humans amplify their qualities and their skill sets, right? Like, we’re not looking to use AI to replace or or to allow humans to become lazy and atrophy. What are some of the weaknesses that you think? I mean, you’ve spoken about a couple of them in the last question, but, like, what are other weaknesses you see with AI?

Janet Macaluso: Well, in terms of just, the weaknesses, I think, is it when relying on something like chattyBT. Too much to do all your thinking for you. But if I think about the work that you’re bringing into the world, which it’s so valuable, especially now, but anytime it’s so valuable for leaders to move up in the world. Two things. One is over relying on on maybe your technology as an example. Instead of it goes back to my 1st premise of building your own state of being, and consciousness. So imagine if someone always relies on technology instead of realizing what’s my inner state like right now? What’s my external context happening right now? And what’s my relationship with the others around me. Those things I would hope that I would build skills to be able to acknowledge those more and more and less on, machine learning. Yeah. Definitely.

Rachel Cossar: We like to we’ve had to be really careful with the way that we provide feedback because we don’t want our feedback to become a crutch and to become overly prescriptive for people. Like we don’t want the AI to be telling the human if this is exactly how you should be behaving and moving and expressing. Right? But we, like, we want the human to receive feedback, like, you know, consider using hand gestures. It can help with things like expression and trustworthiness. And then we want the human to then sit back and reflect and decide, like, how might I use hand gestures? What feels authentic and natural for this conversation right, same thing with facial expressions. We don’t want our AI to be counting the number of smiles and then saying, oh, you know, you did 12 smiles. You should really be doing 15. No. None of that. Right? But we do want to encourage people to use their facial expressions. So it’s a really fine line But I’m glad you brought that up. Right? Like, the nuance between AI, replacing people’s ability to reflect and integrate Absolutely.

Janet Macaluso: And the the other area where I think it’s a watch out Yeah. Is I’ve been in charge of talent management for many years in succession planning. And what I found was that you would have someone who is maybe a very good, confident, public speaker and they would present to senior leaders. And then the senior leaders would say this person is great. We wanna promote them. And everyone else or I would be thinking, wait a minute, that guy was show boating. He knew how to present in a way that would create that reaction in you. When we have these other folks who are more introverted who are actually the foundation of the company that make it work, and you’re overlooking at them because you’re paying too much attention. To the confidence. I don’t know what your thinking is about that. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: I mean, our thinking is like like give everyone the tools to be able to present themselves as the capable competent individuals they are. Like, you know, if you’re, at the end of the day, communication is such a strong critical element of of your professional toolkit. Right? So when you’re mentioning these other individuals who maybe are a little more introverted, maybe less competent as communicators. I’m get get those people trained. Yes. Right? Because you can’t go through your professional life and expect to be put in front of clients and in front of the press as a representative of the company if you don’t have that competency. Absolutely.

Janet Macaluso: So that’s where In the fact that you said, you know, there’s this subtle loan line or this nuance? Yeah. That’s the edge that I was talking about when I was saying all of these challenges are happening in the world all around us. We can’t find a playbook. We can’t find a textbook. But how do you discern the subtle nuances To me, that’s the difference that makes the difference. Yeah. Definitely.

Rachel Cossar: So when it comes to communication, what are you most looking forward to with, like, near future leaders?

Janet Macaluso: You know, I think I’ve been around doing this work for so long that I I will get a little bored if I were just doing the basics. Yeah. So where I like play and the issues that seem to surface for me and and with leaders, I call them undiscussables. And the fact that they’re undiscussable is undiscussable. So it might be what I think but don’t say or what I say, but I don’t mean. Or to the work that you’re doing, what I’m doing but I’m not aware of. Oh, yeah. And then if no one tells me that or somehow I’m not able to reflect and find it out myself. Those undiscussables clog up the communication system they pile on. They pile up. And and so how do you make communication flow easily? That’s the area that I think is really needed. The the other type of work communications, the fun team building, all of that, that’s great. Yeah. The nuance, the hard part is discussing undiscussables. Yeah. I mean, that is such an interesting point.

Rachel Cossar: How do you differentiate? Like Do you think because it sounds like some of those undiscussables are blind spots. Right? Like, if you’re not even aware of maybe some of the way you might be showing up, or that you said one thing, but you actually meant another thing. Right? Like, there’s there’s a little bit of like a blind spot nature to that.

Janet Macaluso: Well, it’s here’s how I address it. I can think of a a leader. I was in his meeting. We were walking out. And he said, and the meeting was a little chaotic. Everyone was talking over each other. And he said to me afterwards, did you see what babies they are? This is it. I’m not a a leader I’m a babysitter and he was venting. Yep. And I said to him, well, why don’t you tell them how you feel? And his response back to me was, well, I can’t tell him how I feel because if I tell them how they feel, then they’ll shut up and they won’t say anything. And I said back to him, then why don’t you tell them that too? Right. And that’s the difference. He didn’t realize he was withholding information thinking that they’re not strong enough to hear it and I said if you tell them why you’re tempted to withholds it because of these reasons you’re sharing that because he says he wants to be an authentic leader and he’s piling and hiding all this luggage.

Rachel Cossar: And that’s gotta be the backbone to so much of this withholding of more honest, maybe, harsher information, right, is there’s a lack of trust in the other side being able to handle it.

Janet Macaluso: Rachel, Think about someone you love and someone you love, you would give you would talk to them in a way you wouldn’t withhold this because you care so much about them succeeding and thriving and the work that they’re doing, that they’re able to make a difference and evolve the work that they’re doing. It has a ripple effect. My work is living systems. So I know for instance I’m a living system together you and I are a living social system We live in families communities. So it’s this interaction of living systems and I if I really care about you. I’m going to share this information because I care and I and and love you. And if if leaders and teammates thought the same way instead of they put on a mask. I’m professional. They got they have the right stuff or they don’t black and white thinking in my mind. Yeah. Yeah. So if they really truly care, they will go over the, get over the uncomfort, the discomfort of sharing that information because they’re sharing it with the purpose of helping to evolve their beloved people, places, or causes. Right. Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: And there, if you have that strong powerful purpose and why it becomes a lot easier to show up in that way. Right? Absolutely.

Janet Macaluso: And so that’s a lot of what I keep working on with leaders is like, okay. In January, you talked about your strategic direction. How about every meeting? Why are we here? Let’s keep the customer in in mind or the patient who’s going to be receiving our medicine or devices. Keep them in mind. Now let’s have that conversation. Yeah. Totally.

Rachel Cossar: Absolutely. So the last question here is really just like, what would be one takeaway for our audience to, to consider in elevating their own leadership qualities? Great. Thank you. That’s a great one.

Janet Macaluso: So back to working on yourself because we can only transform the systems that we really wanna change in the world based on this how transformed and evolved we are. So I would say think about how it’s called it’s a framework that I use called the modes of behavior and there’s 3 ways you can show up and I’d ask your audience to think about, maybe think about a conversation or a meeting that went sideways. So think about that. For off often it doesn’t take too long. Yeah. And then with that, Number 1, did you show up reactive? So something happened from external and you’re just fighting it off somehow reacting maybe not verbally or or physically fighting it off, you might actually close down, but it’s another way of reacting. That’s one approach to this conversation. Another one is called from your ego, So from your motive behavior, did you respond like beating your chest and let me show you what I did and you guys don’t know how to do it, but my team did alright and you’re trying to boast a little bit too much. So there’s another way. First one was reactive Second mode of behavior is from your ego. The third one goes back to what we were just talking about. Behaving from meaningful purpose? Are we coming from and behaving from a higher purpose beyond this conversation. We’re having this conversation to help others help them develop their their own work. So the those are the 3 modes of behavior, reactive, ego, in a purposeful meaning. And if you think about that, I think that, for your conversation that went sideways, you can find out whether 1 or more parties were coming from the first or second mode. Does what how do you react to that?

Rachel Cossar: Well, I think having frameworks like that can be really helpful because number 1, it helps you understand how you’re showing up to the conversation and how you’re maybe reacting or behaving. And then it also helps you start to understand how the other parties are showing up. Right? And I think if you’re able to see like, okay, this person is being very reactive to this subject, like, maybe then you pause to figure out what’s actually not maybe not being communicated that needs to have some air. Right? So I think having a framework, like, that’s really helpful because it helps you get to the heart of the issue and then have end up at the end of the day having a real conversation instead of just talking past one another. Which I feel like happens a lot.

Janet Macaluso: And these frameworks actually help have the undiscussables So you you have something to use and look at together. So why I say we start at your work is working with with someone a leader to be able to, evolve their own capabilities. But it’s not just so that I’m self developing, self improvement for my own ego. It’s in order to evolve the team, the organization, the business, maybe even the industry. Okay? Yeah. So but it starts with the self. If you’re not aware of yourself, you’re never gonna get it like that story where the financial advisor didn’t get the deal. But once you get that, You can then say especially with the team. So how do we using the same framework modes of behavior? How do we work with our customers? Are we reactive maybe on pricing? Because something happened in the market with the competitors and we react or from ego, or are we coming from that meaningful purpose once again? So this is how it it builds on itself but it starts with the self. Yeah. Awesome. That’s it’s honestly so powerful.

Rachel Cossar: Janet, I wanna thank you for showing up and sharing so many wonderful insights. What is the best way for our audience to be in touch with you or follow more of your thought leadership? Oh, thank you very much.

Janet Macaluso: Janet Macaluso, m a c a l u s o on LinkedIn. Please follow me. I’m actually thinking of having a mid year and midlife recheck for June. It’s mid year already. So let’s I’m I’m gonna be sending out for the month of June, some posts and videos that will really help to reset these types of frameworks that we’re talking about. And you can also check my website learning number 2lead.com. Rachel, it’s been a pleasure. I just love watching you grow and evolve and spread this important work. So thanks again for having me. Thank you so much, Janet. It means the world.

Rachel Cossar: And thank you to our audience as always for tuning in. See you next time.