Building Trust and Rapport on Video Through Nonverbal Behaviors

Rachel Cossar: Alright. I’m gonna just start a again. Oh. Great. Hello, and welcome to another episode of conversations in the future of work. I’m your host, Rachel Cossar, Co-founder and Ceo at Virtual Sapiens. And today, I’m thrilled to be joined by the doctor Abbie Maroño. So I’m gonna pass it over to you to share… Just a little bit about your background and why it is that you’re so excited and jazz about where we’re going in the future of work.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Thank you for such a warm introduction rachel as always. I’m doctor Abbie Maroño. I’m a behavioral of scientist. And the director of education at Social engineer. I have a Phd in psychology specializing in behavioral analysis. And I’m very excited about where we’re going and looking at how you’re using nonverbal communication in the realm because I think the whole world is going virtual, really, we know that after the pandemic. And the research on nonverbal communication is only just starting to go virtual. So I’m love what you’re doing, turning this into physical training. So I’m really excited about everything you’re doing and where the research is going.

Rachel Cossar: Awesome. Yes. And so everyone knows. So doctor Romano is one of our advisors at Virtual Sap, so we get to work very closely together. And excited to have you on the show.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Excited to be.

Rachel Cossar: So in terms of our first question, today, we’re focusing on building trust and rapport in virtual environments. So just so everyone’s on the same page. In your view, how are trust and rapport. Similar, how are they different? Like, how do you define these two concepts?

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Well, trust is… There’s no very clear specific. Definition of trust, because there’s different types of trust. You know, there’s cognitive trust says emotional trust, and things like that. But trust is really about vulnerability ability. Do I trust there I can be vulnerable with you and you won’t exploit that vulnerability. So it’s really for me about safety, do I feel safe, providing you something? Whether it’s being in your physical presence, providing you information, or interacting with you. Rapport is really about that interpersonal dynamic. So we’re reports about the general positivity. Of an interaction. So rapport and encompass trust But report can also encompass things like like ability, closeness, familiarity. And again, report isn’t perfectly defined, but it really is just about that positivity individuals. For rapport, you don’t necessarily need trust, There’s lots of people that we can feel close to and like and have good rapport with. But not necessarily trust and wouldn’t feel safe providing them really personal information. But for trust, you need rapport. You wouldn’t trust anybody that you don’t have call. So I would say that rapport is a precursor to a trusting relationship,

Rachel Cossar: Okay. Wow. That’s… I mean, it’s such an interesting distinction on an important one because I think oftentimes

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: So what I hear is things like trust, rapport, and empathy, get kind of mush together

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes. Yep. So concepts like inter interpersonal new closeness, which really is about how close I feel to you psychologically. How I define myself by my relationship with you, And all of these concepts are so similar and overlapping but they are distinct. And I think trust specifically really is distinct because… Trust is a one way thing. So you can have trust between individuals, but it is personal, I can trust someone and they might not trust me. Where it’s rapport really is that interpersonal aspect of what’s the positivity between us. You can feel rapport with someone and them not feel rapport with you. But that idea of rapport really is that personal aspect.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Right. That makes sense. So so let’s go a little deeper on this concept of trust.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. Yes.

Rachel Cossar: So my question, my next question is, what elements of building trust and being perceived as trustworthy, can you actually control. And this is specifically within the the mindset of of nonverbal

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. So I love that you said perceived

Rachel Cossar: and nonverbal behaviors.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: because people often think that you can use nonverbal to peer trustworthy or you can read nonverbal of trustworthiness and they’re accurate. Now nonverbal verbal are all about perception. So I can make sure that I’m displaying trustworthy. And that’s just about my perceived trustworthy. It doesn’t necessarily represent my actual trust. You might be a very trustworthy person but not be very nonverbal verbally intelligent. And that doesn’t discredit your actual character what it means is you’re not doing yourself justice. And trust and trustworthiness are related, but again, staying worthiness is something you show. Trust is something that is built. So for that to trust, you have to be perceived as trustworthy, but it doesn’t mean you will be given trust. But if you’re not perceived as trustworthy, you probably won’t. So it is really important. And when it comes to being perceived, as trustworthy, Again, like you said, focusing on nonverbal is the greatest way to be see just trustworthy because trust is built within milliseconds. Thirty three milliseconds we make a judgment of whether someone is perceived is trustworthy or not, and that judgment is resistant to change, and that is all nonverbal verbal. So we make a judgment of trustworthiness, prior to speaking to that individual. So the only thing we have to go off is that nonverbal expression?

Rachel Cossar: Right. I think there’s often a disconnect between how people interpret nonverbal and

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: what that that person might actually be be like. Right? I think it’s easy to. It’s easy. Like, we do

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: We’ve evolved to make these kinds of snap judgments for our safety, right? And as human beings, But then it’s we have to be really careful with actually leaning in and allowing some of those

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: judgments to reflect back on you what… Who you think this person may be? You know, we see the same thing frequently wins.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: Facial expressions, like, the difference between a detected, facial expression and a felt sense of emotion are very different. Right? So someone can be feeling

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: quite at ease and attentive, but their facial expression reads as angry or completely dis. Right? And

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. And that’s the thing because are non. Do show our inner states. Absolutely. That’s what they’ve evolved to do. They’ve evolved to communicate, and they are a behavior one station, of our internal states all nervous system nervous system reactions, of course. However, we do have a perception management ability. So when I’m teaching on vr, when I’m teaching it as an observer, I say look past the nonverbal, what’s a consistency of behavior, what? And the verb was saying is there a mismatch between the two channels? When I’m teaching someone as a sender, I’m teaching them how to make sure that nonverbal are as appearing trustworthy as possible. So So there’s both sides of it, and you really want to be… So well informed on both sides, so you can make sure that As a sender, you are giving yourself the best chance to create a positive of interaction. But as an observer, you’re not being swayed too much by the non. So it definitely is not necessarily counterintuitive, but contradictory but

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: that is the way that it works.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Absolutely. And that distinction is so between…

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: Like, what can you do as a… Someone who’s presenting or speaking or

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: What are the choices you wanna make to ensure that the message you intend to send is con with the nonverbal you’re displaying.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: Right? Like, that’s one bucket of muscle development. And then the other on the other side of it, it’s as a reader of non verb Right? Yeah. You definitely want to be looking for more than just these isolated cues that maybe you read somewhere that

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Enough. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: crossed arms means that this person’s closed. Right? And it’s, like, actually Maybe not.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. And I think what’s important is when we teach non verbal to say how to appear trustworthy, It’s not a case of how to fake trustworthiness.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: I encourage you to show trustworthy behaviors be consistently trust, they absolutely, but a lot of people really struggle with, actually using their behaviors to show their emotions. To show that they feel positive to show their listening and we want to make sure we give them the the upper hand, the best ability to do so. We don’t say, you know, how to appear trustworthy and actually be manipulative.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Because if you’re having a long term interaction, that’s going to be obvious because it’s It’s very difficult to engage in strict impression management across a long period of time. Because our true behaviors do come out and then people feel deceived, and we never encourage that. But we do want to make sure that people who are trustworthy people who do want to facilitate cooperation and have a positive interaction. They have access to understand what skills they need to display because confidence is something that is often very difficult to obtain, and it difficult to show, but it is very, very important. And we wouldn’t say, oh, you’re not confident so therefore, don’t display it. You know, we want to say even if you don’t feel it, this is how you appear confident and then through the appearance of confidence, you can learn confidence. So it’s really about creating positive interactions, and giving yourself and others the best way to have that upper hand. Not about trying to be manipulative and pretend to be trustworthy. And not being trustworthy.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Right. It’s so interesting. I feel like people are gonna have to go through this conversation a number of times because like, the level of nuance is pretty specific. Like, you know, it’s like, Amy C work, wherein you can have your the way you assemble your body can actually

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: influence your own effect and the way that you perceive yourself. In a moment. So you can almost use the nonverbal to help you get from one state into another state.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: You wanna be careful about that, like… Yeah. It’s like, then you’re like, okay. So how do I balance that with, like, being authentic and I cannot manipulate. It says,

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah. And it takes practice. It’s like you said that

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: you might have to go back and listen a couple of times because People think that Nun was just so simple.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: And it is simple. But just because it’s simple, it doesn’t mean it’s easy. It’s like any scale where it takes time and it takes practice and

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: the way we hold ourselves and even the way we talk to ourselves. Affects how we feel. For example, we know that standing up straight with the shoulders back, and having a very strong posture makes you feel more confident.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: When new sc, you feel less confident.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: By also, when before we do something, Sam I’m looking in the mirror and I can’t do it I can’t do it. I can’t do it. What do you think happens More cortisol is released, which makes it harder for me to do it effectively. If I stand in the mirror and I go, you know, you got this. This is great. We feel confident we can do this. We’re excited. I feel the nerves, but I’ve got this. Cortisol isn’t going to be increased in that level. So I’m going to give myself a better ability and a better chance to go out and do there.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: To do it effectively. So the way we speak to ourselves where we hold ourselves, really does affect our abilities. Even if it’s just a little nudge in the right direction that little nudge is still a nudge, it’s still what we want to see.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Small

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: small changes and small re rewire over time, I think is where.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: That sustained change can happen. Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah. I love what you said as well over time.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Because I think there’s a lot of courses that will say you know, you do this Two hour course and you’re gonna be a nonverbal communication x, expert or you take this one class, and you’re gonna be a deception detection expert and It’s pseudo scientific. And that’s not how the human brain works. That’s not how we work. We need consistent practice, consistent change over time,

Rachel Cossar: Yep. Perfect.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: because we need things to become natural to us. If I’m saying okay, I need to make sure that I’m smiling and I’m being expressive, and I’m being bold and sitting up straight, and I say all of that at once, it’s gonna create cognitive overload.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: And I’m going to look really silly. We wanna make small consistent changes over time until those behaviors become part of my natural behavior repertoire, and then I make another small little tweak, and then another small tweak until it is natural until it looks often then tick. Not like I’m saying, okay. What do I need to show? What do I need to show that? What do I need to

Rachel Cossar: Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: show next.

Rachel Cossar: So on this topic of kind of being authentic with it and building new muscles and and whatnot. There’s a concepts that I think a lot of people want to understand

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: better and sometimes maybe don’t quite get Right. So what is nonverbal

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: I’m so glad you. This is my favorite. Topic. This is what I did my Phd, how to use nonverbal mimic grids influence information solicitation. And any chance to talk about this, I will talk about this. So nonverbal vowel mimic, there’s… There’s different types of mimic grade. So mimic overall, we have things like emotional mimic, which is facial mimic and then nonverbal mimic korea’s mimic group of the body. For example, say you’re stood with your hand on your hip, with one leg dipped. I might unconsciously adopt that exact posture, and then I do it because not because I’m copying you. I do it because it’s an unconscious automatic reaction. And this mimicking of posture, create a feeling of closeness, familiarity. It’s a it’s a behavioral overlap that creates a psychological. Overlap. Is where I tried to think about it. And you can use this strategically. So although what happens unconsciously, when you understand how to use it without being overt avert, So, you know, you raise your arm and I raise my arm instantly after. Or if I copy every behavior you do it’s over, it’s not subtle it’s, not going to be mimic. It’s going to be mocking. Basically. So when you understand how to use it strategically and effectively, you can absolutely use it to create corporation. And There is tons and tons of literature, so much so that Mimic is called a social glue phenomena. It creates their social by, facilitating harmonious personal end personal interactions. And it’s also been called a cooperation enhancing mechanism. Because it does have this really unique ability to create cooperation between individuals.

Rachel Cossar: Right. So follow up to that. Right? Is it’s I think people can kind of understand that and grasp that when we’re in person.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: But what about on video?

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes. I can’t I’m so cut you. Because this was study three… No. Study four of my phd. There wasn’t really an literature on this. Because the realm of mimic isn’t no. It’s very, very lasting and this gray older research on it, but in terms of the virtual world. There really wasn’t anything. So I wanted to know if we could create cooperation by mimicking online. And there’s a funny story of how I did this study. When my supervisor said that we need to do it online because of Covid, I say, well there’s no point. It’s not gonna be effective online. And as I was saying that, one of my supervisors was like, well, you’re mimicking, Stacy right now. And I looked and I had completely copied every way that she was sitting, how she had her hands, how I have my head directed, and I just said, okay. Well we’ll do it. And just as it is in person, actually it’s exactly the same online. So again, you don’t wanna be too overt, but

Rachel Cossar: Fascinating.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: say someone changes their posture, maybe quotes their head, knots the head, would do the same? Make them. Not every time they do it again, subtle and timing is important, but it does create cooperation. And interestingly, if you observe two other people mimicking, So say you have two business partners, interacting them with a client. If the business partners are in sync with each other, and their behaviors look in unison, will the client it’s more… Feels more positive and more cooperative to both parties, just observing Mimic makes us more cooperative.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: Right, Which it’s just that’s so so fascinating that

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: it translates onto to video as well. I mean, you know, we we know this And as you mentioned earlier, in your introduction, like, the research now is really coming out. Right? And thanks

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: to researchers such as yourself, we can actually like know that these tools are… Or these concepts are out there. These phenomena are out there and that

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: reflective on video. And if they’re reflective on video, they can be observed on video, they can be leveraged on video, it becomes very powerful.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. Yep. And I think as awful as awful as Covid was, it did really shake up the literature on nonverbal.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Because so much now started to happen virtually. So we were forced to realize, u, all of this information that I focus on, I now can’t. And this little box that I’m in and just my face and my upper body. Carry a lot of importance. And I think went one way or the other where some people this is something that is fantastic, and now I have more control.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Because I can harness this little box and make sure that I give my nonverbal the best opportunity. And then on the other side, you have people to go Well, now we’re virtual. And like I said, I I did that a little bit too at the beginning.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Was that we’re virtual, So it’s not gonna be effective. What’s the point? And they’re the ones really missing out on that richness. To enhance their interpersonal interactions.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Yeah. No. For sure. Definitely. I had a conversation at a conference just last week. And one gentleman was very much of the latter opinion where he was like, yeah. But on video all body language goes out of control because or out the window because all you can see is the person’s head. Goes and I’m like, well, you don’t… Like, if the person’s framed themselves properly, you can see almost just as much as you would see if we were sitting.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: At a table across from one another. So there’s actually a lot going for us on video in terms of nonverbal. Brilliant? Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. And if you can only see their face and the camera quality isn’t good,

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Well, that says a lot too because that creates a really negative first in oppression. So… The people that say oh well it’s non important so I won’t have my camera on or… I’m not bothered about a high quality camera or what my body is doing. Great, you might not be, but what you’re doing is now limiting. Your social interactions. You’re now limiting your ability to create corporation to create that positive personal interaction.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Right. And what I always like to say about nonverbal in general is you know, whether you like it or not, you’re sending a message. So

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep. Yep. You know, you can say, oh, I don’t care. Great.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Don’t care. If you don’t think that it’s important, don’t think it’s important. But people are still going to be responding to an nonverbal variables whether you like it or not.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: So you might as well give yourself the best chance. And I think that this isn’t necessarily anybody’s fault. I think there is… So much misinformation out there about nonverbal, that a couple of things happen. People see this misinformation and they try and use it and it’s ineffective. So they go, oh, well, number. Wilson this suggest hoc poc? Or they recognize the pseudo scientific nature of it, and go, oh, well, the field is hoc focus in general. And

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: It’s really a shame because there’s so much fantastic research out there, and there’s so much fantastic work being done, but it does get over shadowed by this pseudo science and it’s because when we over sell the importance of nonverbal and when we over

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: said what number can do. It’s appealing. You know, it makes money if you say, oh, you do this expression and you’re gonna be the richest person ever, or are you’re gonna get these amazing responses,

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: I yeah, I would buy that. But then it soon becomes aware that that ineffective. And the actual realities don’t always sell as well of you know, it gives you a good nudge in the right direction. That first Say with pitch, sounds way more exciting.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: But it isn’t really how it works. So again, that real beauty of this science does get overshadowed. When you dive into it and really see what can be done when we look things like how to pay trustworthy, how to create cooperation and we make sure we get our information from reliable sources, There’s a lot that can be done.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Absolutely. And so this… It’s funny because the final question that I was gonna ask you to wrap this up. Relates to everything you just said? Like, what is… Right? What what are some of the things that are so misunderstood about nonverbal, And I feel like he just, like, perfectly answered that. Which is which is wonderful. So I’m gonna wrap up Abby because these are intended to just be short and sweet. But in and saying thank you so much for being here. I’d love to give you the opportunity to share ways that our audience might be able to either follow more of your work, or connect with you directly.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Absolutely. It’s a pleasure to be here. I think we could have talked about hours.

Rachel Cossar: As usual.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: And we probably still will. But you can find me on my website, which is just abi mo dot com, and I have a link to all of my socials, my podcast, my coaching, But my socials are also doctor Abby Moreno at Linkedin. And I believe doctor Abbey official on Instagram.

Rachel Cossar: Great. Awesome. Well, thank you again. For your time and for sharing your amazing insights. I always for go a little deeper when we talk. So I appreciate that. And Yeah. We’ll we’ll continue on another another time.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Absolutely looking forward to the next one already.

Rachel Cossar: Praise. Thank you. Awesome.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: I was feel like we can just go on for ages.

Rachel Cossar: Oh, I know. I know. Absolutely.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: I think we cover stuff that Other people don’t because We like the actual science. We don’t like the the big

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: sales pitch, wanna don’t give the realities. Of it not the, hey, you do this.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: And then you can make loads of money being the best person ever and just

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: you see that all the time.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. And I just think it’s, like critical for people to have this perspective because

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: nonverbal have. For better or for worse made it into culture and when something’s in pop culture, it’s like these tiny little buzz words,

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: that people lock on to. And they’re like, oh, it means you know, it’s like the percentage.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: My gosh. I still… And the amount of people that I

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: see nonverbal verbal communication expert. You look at the stuff and it’s like

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: section detection expert. And it’s all the, you know, look up and left,

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Cs someone’s is lying and ninety three percent. I hate that.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Any keynote I do not, like I just did a keynote Guardian.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: And the first thing I do is like, let’s dispel some submit

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Yes. Totally. Totally. Absolutely.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: that really put me angry.

Rachel Cossar: Awesome. Well, I’m gonna

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: edit out that beginning, but I think other than that, it was really great. And so I think I have you scheduled for like a month out or so, I released episodes once every other Wednesday. So the first one comes out tomorrow and then every other Wednesday after that. So

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: The so exciting thing that you’ve got that When longer coming, I think.

Rachel Cossar: I think so. I mean, I was hesitant at first because I was like, it’s just more work for me. But this platform makes it so easy. You know? And it’s a great way to engage people. So

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: So, you know, we’ll see how it goes. We’ll we’ll experiment Maybe we’ll actually do a live session once where people can actually, like, put in their questions. So

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Yeah. That’s a good idea.

Rachel Cossar: be kinda cool. But anyways, that’s that’s all for today.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Thank you.

Rachel Cossar: You as well. Hope the noise isn’t gonna be too.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Enjoy the rest of your day. Yet. See. I think it was just early morning.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: For no reason until about eleven o’clock.

Rachel Cossar: Yep Yep. Yep. No.

Dr. Abbie Maroño, PhD: Awesome. You too. Bye.

Rachel Cossar: How the world goes. Awesome. Alright. Have a good rest of your day.