A Data-Backed Approach to Simple and Effective Selling

Rachel Cossar: Everyone, and welcome to another episode in conversations in the future of work. I am your host, Rachel Cossar, and I am thrilled to dive into the intricate and sometimes magical space of sales processes. We all know sales can be a big challenge, whether you’re a solopreneur or running sales at a very large enterprise organization. So today, we have Carol Mahoney on the show, and I cannot wait to dive in. Carol, welcome. Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. I’m so excited to be here with you.

Carole Mahoney: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: So are we so if you wanted to share a little bit about your background, what you’re up to now, what you’re focusing on. Yeah.

Carole Mahoney: So I run a company called Unbound Growth, and our tagline is that we take a research backed and field tested approach to sales performance because there are so many different methodologies and opinions out there about sales that I really am focused on digging onto what are the psychological and neuroscience and data of sales so that we can take some of the myth and mystification of sales out of the equation and make it less guesswork and more sales process scientific work. And what I really do is I talk about how do we take a cognitive behavioral approach to sales performance because how we think about sales impacts how we behave in sales, which then leads to the results that we get in sales. And so if you really wanna understand how do you change your sales results, you have to understand what the root cause of that is. And so that’s why I’m excited about the work that I do because I often find that in working with people that I’m not just helping them to be better salespeople. It actually makes them better people. You can’t be a good salesperson if you’re not a good person. And so that’s really what I’m excited about the work that I do. I also, am a coach at Harvard Business School for their entrepreneurial MBA program where I get to teach next generation of salespeople about what sales is really all about. And I’m also the author of the best selling book, Buyer First, Grow Your Business with Collaborative Selling. And I’m working on book number two, which is called Seller First, which is really focused on how do you scale a sales effort in a small organization or as a leader going into an organization that you’re required to transform that organization. So I’m really excited for that. Awesome. Awesome. Such great things.

Rachel Cossar: Just to dive right in. So you mentioned in your in your intro there that, I mean, there’s a lot that goes into your sales performance that’s rooted in your own feelings about sales or attitudes towards sales. So I’m curious to hear what are some of the biggest mistakes you see being made when it comes to trying to execute on a sales process.

Carole Mahoney: The number one biggest mistake that I see nearly every sales organization make with their sales process is it’s what I call an inside out sales process. They start from the inside of their organization. What is it that they need to accomplish? What do they need from their sales process? And they don’t align their sales process or even revolve their sales process around what is their buyer’s process. What are the steps their buyers need to go through? What are the questions their buyers need answers to? And as a result, you have these misaligned sales processes that we’re as sales organizations trying to force our buyers to go through these steps, and buyers are resisting. And there’s data that I’d love to share with you too in a moment about what what are actually the results of that today. And so instead of forcing our buyers into a sales process, what I try to encourage sales organizations to do is let’s identify what are the stages that our buyers are going through, and then how do we align our sales process to that, which makes it not only more predictable, but also easier to follow because it’s aligned with our buyers. And so taking an outside in approach to their sales process. The other the second most common mistake that I hear or see people make is they just try to adopt a process without actually thinking about how is it gonna apply in our organization. And so a sales process that doesn’t have a clear definition of what is the stages, what are the requirements for this stage, what are the steps and actions that we need to take in this stage, and the milestones that move it from one stage to the next. Instead, it’s that, well, I think it’s here, and then it might be there. And so it becomes these unpredictable, unforecastable pipelines that frustrate sales organizations.

Rachel Cossar: So going back to the first mistake that you see so often moving from or shifting from inside out to to outside in. Mhmm. I mean, that must the buyers’ behaviors are changing a lot. Yes. And so, I mean, like, how how there must be some kind of constantly evolving requirement there, right, to to be able to change as your buyers are changing. Yeah.

Carole Mahoney: In my work that I do, one of my colleagues, David Hochfeld, did a research study where he emphasized over 400 studies on buying behavior. And what was interesting about that is that through all of these different studies over a period of decades and buyer behaviors are continuing to change, but one thing that remains consistent is that they’re asking themselves certain questions that they need answers to before they can feel comfortable moving to the next stage. So for example, is this even a problem that I need to solve? Is it a problem that I need to solve right now? What’s the best solution for me to solve this? Why this particular vendor over that particular vendor? So it’s these questions that we really base it off of, versus the buying behaviors of the what they’re going to do is if we can understand the the the questions within those stages, then it makes it easier for us to understand and and sometimes even predict what are the behaviors that they’re gonna demonstrate in that. And then also having that flexibility to understand what are the behaviors that our buyers are giving us at these particular stages. Are they offering information freely? Are they involving other people in their organization? Are they sharing you with you what their criteria and requirements are at those particular stages? These are all things that we can work into our sales process that tell us based on our buyers’ behaviors where we actually are with them. Right. Right.

Rachel Cossar: And examples of things like that would be like asking them what their budget timeline is, like, you know, understanding their their internal processes so that, you know, you’re not having these, like, back and forth conversations that are actually, irrelevant because, you know, the timing on their end is wrong or something. Yeah.

Carole Mahoney: My favorite ultimate question in the sales process is to ask a buyer what type of results are you looking for, when do you need to see them by, and what is the impact of getting those results by that date or not getting them by that date. Because then with that answer of where do they wanna be in the future and why it matters, you can then reverse engineer each of the steps and stages that they need to go through in order to get that result. Instead, most salespeople start with, well, when do you want to make your decision by? Which is what a salesperson cares about. When do you want this implemented by? Which is what a salesperson cares about. Buyers care about when are they gonna get these results because that’s what is their jobs are on their line. Their businesses are on the line for that. Right.

Rachel Cossar: It sounds like if you’ve done the work to align your sales process with buyer behaviors and and needs, it it am I right in thinking that your sales process could become simplified? Like, is there such a thing as a simple sales process? There is such a thing as a simple sales process.

Carole Mahoney: Of course, it depends on the type of organization you’re selling into or selling with. You know, if you’re selling to a small business owner, it can be a relatively simple sales process. Three stages. Once Yeah. And done. Whereas, you know, more enterprise sized deals where you have multiple decision making units involved, you have longer sales cycles that are involved anywhere from eighteen to twenty four months sometimes, then you’re gonna have what appears to be a much more complicated sales process where you may have more stages. But, again, if you’re following those two simple rules of having clear definitions and milestones and activities for each stage that align with each decision making units, questions, and behaviors that they have, it doesn’t seem quite as complicated as it might appear. Right. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: It’s interesting because at Virtual Sapiens, we sell to individual coaches, and then we also sell to enterprise Right. In the whole organizations. And so we’ve actually seen like, we’ve seen sales or deals that have turned around in a number of days, and then and then we’ve literally been in these, like, year like, just over a year long procurement. Like, oh my god. Like and it’s interesting to to kinda take a step back and analyze the processes that happened with each because they are similar, just accelerated and simplified. Right? Depending on almost directly in relation to the size of the organization. Yeah. It’s almost like anything in life.

Carole Mahoney: The more people that you get involved, the longer and more complicated it’s going to be. You know, so many cooks in the kitchen metaphor. Because everyone has an opinion and a thought and different risk and perceptions and experiences that are involved with that, that as a sales professional, you have to be able to take those into account. You’re essentially kind of the ringleader in that organization, helping them to come to consensus on what is the actual problem. Do we all agree on that? Do we all agree on what the solution and impact is going to be? And do we all agree on the value of that this impact is going to have on us? Right. Coming to that consensus that is often difficult for organization, and it’s the top salespeople who are able to be that outside voice of reason sometimes that actually are able to make these deals happen. Right.

Rachel Cossar: And that like, where does because I have also found that if urgency has been either, triggered or identified, like, that’s been one of the biggest indicators whether the deal will succeed or whether it will get almost caught in this, like, horrible cycle of conversation and no action. Yeah. Like, what is your advice for getting to that, like, nugget of urgency fast? Go back to my favorite question.

Carole Mahoney: What type of results do you need to see by when, and what is happens if you don’t see those results by that date, and what happens if you do? And if they don’t know the answers to that and you can’t help them get there and there isn’t urgency, I’d like to dispel the myth that you can create urgency in your buyers. You can uncover it. You can nurture it, but you can’t magically create it for them through a discount or some other fear factor kind of a variable. It really has to be something that you uncover and nurture with your buyers. And if it’s not there, having the the sense to walk away from that deal or say, you know what? Maybe maybe a a different time, maybe next year is a better time for us to talk about this when you fully realize the impact of this issue. Yes.

Rachel Cossar: I am I love that you stated that so articulately because I do think that I do think that oftentimes people who are maybe greener in the sales process, you know, you you connect with another human being and they’ll take your calls until, like, you know, work done all this work together. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re like, oh my god. This is progress. And then you real like, or hopefully, you realize that, like, actually, this person is not ready to buy your solution. They think it’s like, this happens to us every now and then where I’ll be, like, noticing these conversations and, you know, in some ways, there are very positive signals. But then in the actual underlying behaviors that, like, the deal is not progressing and it’s because the buyer is just like, thinks your product is really cool, can see the relevance of it, but doesn’t have that urgent need. And so they’re like, you know, there’s it it’s just never gonna be a priority that gets pushed through. Right. Exactly.

Carole Mahoney: And it all depends what’s going on in in their circumstance and in their business. You know? Again, it may I think this is a really great idea and this is the future of something, but I don’t I don’t have the immediate need for it right now, so I can’t prioritize it. Right. Yeah. Right.

Rachel Cossar: And then, conversely, like, we just had a deal with a with a very large company go through, and, like, procurement was not an issue at all. Like, we were done in a week, which was shock I I was shocked. But, again, it was because the internal person who had gotten approval for the deal was like, hey. By the way, like, we actually we need to push this through as soon as possible because we have these coaches who need this tool, like, yesterday. Exactly. Fascinating. It’s just fascinating when things align. Right? This question of a simple sales process actually starts to make sense. Yeah.

Carole Mahoney: Because it’s simple when the when the buyer has the urgency and the means to solve the problem by it then becomes very, very simple. It gets complicated when we feel that we need to convince and persuade and influence them to our direction instead of recognizing that, if I can’t give bring you to consensus and I can’t nurture and help you to understand, then at some point, you have to be willing to walk away as a salesperson. And most salespeople I work with are, I’m gonna make this happen one way or another. They’re determined. They’re competitive, and it sometimes bites them in the you know what. Yep. Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: Switching gears a little bit, I’d love to hear more about, you know, how you’re evolving your own business. How are you lever like, what are the ways in which you’re leveraging technology?

Carole Mahoney: So I’m trying to leverage technology in every way that I can that frees up my actual one to one time with Teams. So we’re using AI in crafting our marketing messages. We’re using AI to analyze sales conversations and really any conversation that I have. You know, we’re trying to leverage it in the ways like doing research on on particular companies and buyers and so forth Mhmm. That’s saving us time, that’s saving us of that ability to do that. And I’m looking at how can we then now incorporate AI into our programs. So we have coaching programs, for example, and we’re looking at using AI to to start getting those role plays in because I know from looking at our stats that it takes anywhere between 40 to 60 repetitions of something to where it starts to click for people. And there’s only so much time in a day that I can do those role plays and those practices with people. And so if there is a way that I can help them to get those initial practice sessions in and then get some reports on those so that it prepares them for that human and one to one conversation where we can dig even deeper into things, where I can really start to apply that cognitive behavioral approach to things. Because when I’m doing training and coaching, I’m trying to answer three questions. Do they know what to do? Can they do it? And then will they do it in the moments? Do they know what to do is training, giving them the knowledge. Can they do it is the practice, which is where the technology can come in? And then will they do it? That’s where that human connection needs to come in to to understand really what’s going on underneath this. What’s the root cause of you hesitating to do this on the calls even though you can do it and that you know you can do it? And so that’s one of the ways that I think that technology can accentuate the human interactions that we have in our businesses because sales is still very personal. People still want a human being to be involved, but that doesn’t mean we can’t leverage the technology to make that more insightful, more relevant, and, well, faster. Right. Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: And that’s, you know, something we talk about a lot and that I’ve been having lots of conversations about recently is, like, as you said, where and how can technology and AI amplify the human skills. Right. Or or speed up your productivity. Right?

Carole Mahoney: I feel like there are those two core applications for AI.

Rachel Cossar: And then there’s this third one that I actually just I can’t get on board with, which is, like, using AI to kind of replace some of that human authenticity. Right? Like, avatars, eye gaze redirects. Right? Things that are actually altering what’s happening in reality. Yeah. I don’t know if you want there either. I am not there either.

Carole Mahoney: I am I am though on board with you know, if AI can offer us different perspectives, different insights into things that we might not have seen before because of our own biases, which I don’t believe that AI is unbiased, by the way. But at the same time, it also can help us like, you know, I was just on a conversation with a client. They’re like, well, why didn’t we see that before? I’m like, you know the old thing. If you’re inside the bottle, you can’t read the label. If AI can give us the opportunity to get outside of our own environments and look at things and see them differently that we hadn’t considered before, I see that as a way of accentuating that human experience in in insight. Right. Right. Absolutely. I think that, I mean, makes a ton of sense.

Rachel Cossar: So one of the things that you and I had discussed, briefly before putting this session together, you know, some of the studies and research that you rely on heavily to really support your work. So what are some of the research studies that you’ve been looking at or digging into re recently?

Carole Mahoney: So most recently, I’ve been looking at performance data and studies around that. And there was a report that just came out that was the b two b sales benchmarks report that was put out probably Pavilion. And what was interesting or I don’t know if I wanna say interesting is the word, maybe sad about this is that what it revealed is that in 2024, that we’re seeing a a drastic decrease in the level of productivity for salespeople. Like, win rates are down by 18%. Sales cycles are up by 16%. Deal values themselves are down by 21%, and sixty nine percent of reps last year missed their quota. And 44% of deals slip. Like, they they either slipped or pushed or they they went into no decision. Gardner’s research is showing, like like, 60 to 80% of deals are resulting in no decision. And despite the fact that we’re spending $50,000,000,000 a year in technology and we’re seeing these kinds of results still. I mean, there’s other factors, of course, that are at play here. There’s, you know, what’s happening in our economy and business uncertainties and things like that, but this was for 2024. This isn’t from right now. And as I look at that and I also then think about, you know, like you had just said, there’s those that think that we can replace the human experience or the human interaction with technology. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case because the research that I have found is that people want a human being to be able to help them to make that decision to feel confident and comfortable in the decisions that they’re making. Mhmm. And so what’s happening and what I see happening is that technology is creating more decision stalls, no decisions, staying with the status quo because there’s so much information that’s being thrown at us and our buyers that we’re overwhelmed with that information. And then on top of that is the uncertainty that these solutions are gonna provide for us. And then the big thing is do does everyone in the organization even agree on what the problem and the solutions are? And and instead of technology making that easier, based on this data and what I’m seeing happening in everyday sales conversations is making it worse. Mhmm. And so we really need to be focused on what is the human connection that we can make. And in my book, I did a lot of research to understand what is it that buyers want today. And what I found is that what buyers really want from the salesperson today is they don’t wanna pitch. They don’t want a product in a feature dump. They certainly don’t need any more information. There’s plenty of that out there. But what they do want is someone who’s listening to them, who understands them and their world, that can collaborate with them to come up with different ideas and insights and perspectives on the solutions and the problems that they have, and that when we ask open ended questions that help us to understand our buyers and when buyers answer these questions, not only does it help them to feel like they’re being listened to, but it also helps buyers to change their minds. Have you ever had a conversation with someone where you’ve talked out an issue and they’ve asked you maybe one or two questions, and you go on this rampage. And then by the end of it, you’ve either figured out the solution or you’ve completely changed your mind about what the problem is. No. All they did was let you talk. It’s like therapy. Yeah. Right? Totally. And and that’s what buyers are demanding today. And so as much as we rely on technology, I think that we also need to remember that we’re not comfortable yet with with machines making big decisions for us. We want a human being to tell us we’re making the right decision, to work it out with us, to understand where we’re at, and to say, yes. This is how this is specifically going to help you to solve this specific issue in a quantifiable, incredible way versus another generic pitch or generalized statement about what it is that they can do for them. Right. Yeah. That’s fascinating.

Rachel Cossar: I think, you know, this idea that humans have right? Because because I think a lot of people are are familiar with this concept now, but salespeople almost used to be the information. Like, you had to get you you needed a salesperson to give you the information. Right? And now that’s very much changed. The information is out there. And so the salesperson becomes that guide or or the the person who’s gonna help you navigate through this information and make make that decision as you said. Yeah. Right? And that really requires a deep level of trust and rapport. Mhmm. To really feel like that’s not a problem. Of information anymore. It’s help me make sense of the information.

Carole Mahoney: Help me put a framework around how I’m gonna make this decision because there’s so I I recently have I’ve gone through the process of trying to find a new accountant and bookkeeper. And I can’t tell you how many people I talked to that had various pricing ranges and solution options that I was like, can just someone just tell me who the right people are to talk to. And so I ended up turning to someone who sent me a referral, which is how I found the person that I was looking for. Despite the many searches that I did online and every other information article that I tried, I’m like, I don’t have time to to be an expert in this. I just need someone that I know that I can trust that’s gonna guide me through it. Yep.

Rachel Cossar: That’s so that’s very much, like, the the personal referral. You have a relationship with this friend, this person in your network. They use whoever they use. And, like, that’s, like, such direct line selling almost, I feel like. Like, we did it with our daycare. We did it with where we live. Like, there’s there’s so many options out there that it’s paralyzing to actually do diligent research from, like, a a a macro perspective. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is isn’t it ironic?

Carole Mahoney: Like, we we talk about all of these advances that we have in technology Yeah. That we still are using the age old Yeah. Who do you know that you trust? It is still the number one way to grow a business. It it it’s that transfer of trust that happens where this person I trust trusts this person, then I am gonna be more likely to believe and trust that person as well. Yep. Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: So on that note of trust, Carol, thank you so much for being here, spending your time with us today, and and sharing these invaluable insights. Is there anything else you’d like to share with our audience?

Carole Mahoney: The one last thing that I would share with everyone as you’re thinking about what is the one small thing that I can do to start implementing this is is to remember this phrase. It’s not about you. It’s not about your product. It’s not about your features. It’s not about what you need to win accomplish. It has to be all about your buyers. And that when we start to shift this perspective of and and it’s human nature. Right? Like, we’re always, what’s in it for me? How is this going to impact me? And so it takes a conscious effort to start really thinking about what is in this for that person? How can I best serve this person? It will not only change the dynamic of your sales conversations. It will change the dynamic of your personal conversations. I would even argue it might even change the dynamics of our country as a whole. It’s just to remember that it’s not about us. In fact, I I designed these T shirts that have not about me written on them upside down so that when the person wearing the shirt can look down and say, oh, yeah. That’s right. It’s not about me. Yeah. I have learned to not wear that in traffic, though, because people see that, and then suddenly they’re cutting me off. Okay. Right.

Rachel Cossar: At some point, it does have have to be about you a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. Like, still have your boundaries, still have those types of things.

Carole Mahoney: But if you can remember in your conversations to focus more on the other person than on yourself and what you want out of it, you will find that you get what you need out of it while also helping someone else. Amazing.

Rachel Cossar: Best best way to reach reach out to you or connect? I’m always on LinkedIn.

Carole Mahoney: You can also find me on my website at onboundgrowth.com or at carol mahoney dot com. Those are but but LinkedIn is probably the the easiest and fastest way to reach me. Awesome. Great. Carol, thank you again. Yes. Absolutely. It was a delight to be here, and I can’t wait to talk again soon. Sounds great. And thanks as always to our listeners.

Rachel Cossar: We will see you next time.