Building Interpersonal Connections in a Virtual World

Rachel Cossar: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of conversations in the future of work. I’m your host, Rachel Cossar, co-founder in Ceo at Virtual Sapiens. On the show, as a reminder, we welcome leaders, coaches, scientists who are all really leaning in to the future of work. So that we can figure out how we can be best prepared. Today on the show, I have the amazing Roberto Fe, and I’m gonna actually pass it over to you, Roberto to share some about your background and and how how you’re thinking about the future of work.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you, Richard. Either wait, it’s a pleasure to talk to you again. Pleasure. And my background is actually I’ve been working the transformation project and both technically and strategic and cultural transformation in the last fifteen twelve fifteen. Yes. And have also been very interested in new technology and all these things that every day we have more than we can absorb, by the way, I I consider myself a very curious person. And at the same time, this is something that they will have to control because if extreme curiosity can get you in ten direction at the same time. And I see the future work… But no one knows what’s the future works, I think. But something that I really believe is that the people and relationship part is more important than ever. I… The beginning, I believe… I believe the technical abilities and doing the team fried was just what we needed it. But then more and more see, of course, the relationship with how you manage change, you get everyone in… And, of course, how you communicate with the people. Is. And this is also connects with the how to communicate online and thousands of miles away as we have together, for example, today and hide… You can do effectively you can build the relationship, how you can bond with people and have meaningful conversation at online, which is not so easy in the beginning and need some adaptation from many points of here.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Absolutely. And remind us so where you where are you located currently?

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. I mean, and I’m in Ka bank, which is a commercial bank in Spain. In Spain. It’s six… We’re not four Pm now.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: Quite a time difference, but that’s perfect.

Rachel Cossar: Yes. No. Absolutely. And so this actually segue beautifully into my first question. So thinking about in building interpersonal relationships and connections, a lot of people doubt, whether you can do that over video. And so I’d love to hear how your your way of showing up and building relationships has evolved over the past few years now that, you know, we have this this virtual channel of communication.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. That’s definitely something that I would say I would have not one hundred percent figure it out because we’re constantly learning, constantly trying new new things. The main thing, I would say that in the beginning where we we’re, you know, all forced to do one hundred percent remote from a lot of months. And what I saw is that perhaps when you already have the connection, it’s easier to keep the connection alive to keep the communication. So this was in the beginning. But then we started it work with people who. We never saw it in person. So you didn’t have this previous connection. You didn’t have this trust established. The… One of the things that I think and what’s. Really well. And it’s also also some more human. It’s just not to treat every interaction as a time transaction.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: When we are on Zoom, we are on Themes or whatever, it look like we are going from one point to the other, Okay, let’s go with this. Then next one. And it loses connection with the person. So we have have to try to bring more of ourselves to the meeting and disclose perhaps something. The there is a classic way where restart the meeting. How are you fine I’m fine and fine, but How you really fine? And what’s what’s on your mind? Or what’s how in feeling and what are your struggles? And if you start sharing

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: this kind of things. It’s easier than. To connect with people, especially on one on one, of course, in a meeting with ten people, you cannot just that talking about personal thing. But Anyway, some some little disclosure, some… Something personal, and you show that enough… Not no problem. You can discuss the thing. We are a person but not machines. And

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: And one more thing that I would say is that perhaps you told in one of the seizures sessions way I or or the video that I. So used to exaggerate a little bit more. And when when you’re talking to someone like, standing in person, like, mh It looks like

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: fine. But then your own video, it looks like yeah. You’re a little tile, so you have to move more and and make it

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: clear that you’re engaged. And these are also helps

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: to have a person to know that you are listening to them. And I

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: expect sometimes to people to do it more, But okay, This is some that we all learn. And and when I see that, okay, I probably he’s not engage. He’s not disengaged. He’s just as doing like this and I cannot see it because the tile is so small.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Mh. Right. Yeah. What I loved about what you just shared is, there was more of a kind of strategic conversation based change that you can make. Right? So instead of jumping on these calls and being, like, alright. Agenda item one, right? Taking a moment to really check in with people, can help build that foundation of trust and rapport that so many of us are missing on video. But then you also brought up some of the kind of communication behaviors that need to evolve a little bit on video. Right? I think a lot of people tend to stop at my camera’s on, you can see me sort of that’s enough. And it’s like, actually, no. You have to almost think of this camera as the person you’re talking to. Right? And

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: understand that the person on the other side on the the receiving end, is it it’s like you’re in person, but you have to orient yourself towards the lens, which can feel a little different. So and you’re right, these things take time to change. It’s it’s slightly new habits and new behavior. So. You know, we have to be patient with ourselves and our colleagues, but it’s great to hear that you’re thinking about it in this way.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. And I will also say that not always video is the best way. Sometimes to establish connection, perhaps does a call. And when you only hear the voice, you focus on the voice, you’re focus on the person, and then everything is phase out. You can mix. It’s it’s not black or white it’s not Okay. Now it’s only video. It’s not just okay. Video is bad because we do

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: do or whatever. So it’s finding these links, and also if instant messaging It’s it’s mix of a lot of things. And not every person likes to be contacted with the same way. So you have also to adapt to the other person if someone like audio? Okay. You called. If someone is always poc and and preferred to on not synchronous communication. You can also do the way and choose when to call our web. To make a video. So Constantly evolving and. Also so being aware of higher your message comes across. And this this is one of the talents. Because we can ask and ask how did they look like,

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: did you feel listening a to and? This also pretty trust?

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. No. That’s a great point. I love It it doesn’t always have to be video. Right? We can we can communicate in diverse ways depending on the context and preferences. So wonderful point. So next next up, I I know from some of your amazing Linkedin content and sharing that you’ve made some investments and changes to your virtual environment. So I’d love if you could share with our audience, some of your favorite new in investments or investments that you’ve done over the past few years. To kind level up your virtual presence your virtual experience.

Roberto Ferraro: Mh I love this. This is… This by the way, this is one of the most fun part because I love this technology and trying your stuff. By the way, perhaps the best way is to show you

Rachel Cossar: Oh,

Roberto Ferraro: to let me make a Okay. Is it… That let me that if it’s shows. You can see.

Rachel Cossar: Oh, yes. Right. So we see the lights we

Roberto Ferraro: Okay. Exactly. So this is how it’s now.

Rachel Cossar: see the screens? Yep. Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: I have two lights on mounted side. Because the lighting is very important, because, you know, when

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: when you’re done. When you have the live on the back, you are all black, and you they don’t see their expression and everything I have one light up. Then I have four screen which is not the one hundred percent among come and set up. By the way to put in this

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: four is because the the camera is in the middle. So I can

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: put the the other person in the middle, and… For example, now you are exactly in the centers. I can look into you without staying into a camera.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: Then the microphone, this is my last edition. I can put have a stand, which let me put the hand on the keyboard and not being the middle, then I have one nice which is on a stream deck, which I can click all of these macros and short cards and… Okay. But I would say that

Rachel Cossar: About

Roberto Ferraro: the best stuff is the the light, camera, and and then the microphone. And then, of course, the on the the background, I think is

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: very important also because which by the way one of the thing that in the beginning was experimenting with the these green screens,

Rachel Cossar: Yes, sir.

Roberto Ferraro: And I’m not a big fan of these anymore because looks like more natural to see what’s behind. So if I if I see, someone was always have a screen. Okay. Maybe it’s it’s company policy, or whatever, or you don’t have a buffer setup. But if you can

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: show what’s in the back, I think it’s much better. It’s not a make or break. But if you can, I think it’s nice because you see the real setup is not like, Okay? What’s what’s behind?

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. You help people focus on you in the conversation instead of wondering what you might be

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: hiding. Right.

Roberto Ferraro: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And perhaps it’s just psychological but no one is… I’m not I’m not thinking about oh you don’t have this the real background, you’re hiding something, but maybe something on the back of your mind, it has

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Right. Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: what’s that? Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: No. I think you bring up a good point. I mean, psychologically, we like to understand where people are within the context of their experience. And if we can’t place you, it it’s just a little

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: this… It’s almost like you’re floating around, and it’s harder to understand what your experience

Roberto Ferraro: Yep.

Rachel Cossar: might be like… And then it makes it harder to relate to that person. Right? Whereas with a very real background, we can see, like, okay, you’ve got some nice, plants and some art choices and this like, beautiful clean room, like, it looks very comfortable, you know, I think what one of our advisors at Virtual Sapiens has also shared that you can help calm people on the other end by how you design your background. Right? Things like plants and greens and blues, help people feel a little more relaxed. Right?

Roberto Ferraro: Oh, I love that. And by the way, this reminds me of a person who helped me, which by the way, hi nick. Thank you for your Yeah. Yeah. Tips. He said to me. Okay. This out, looks very nice. And for your coaching center is amazing. And he said, think about substituting this, this will be like magic from one moment to the other, if you are not doing coaching with the library of

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: some books, some shares. So it’s more dynamic. And I thought wow how this would be amazing.

Rachel Cossar: Yes. That that would be cool. You would need some assistance to, like, help just, like, stay on top. Yes. A seen a set change as they say in the in the Ballet world.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: I love that. In terms of… I’m I’m just curious and maybe you don’t have any I know I do, but do you have any major pet peeve when you’re communicating with colleagues on video, things that they may do or not do that you find frustrating.

Roberto Ferraro: Oh, yeah. High one. Probably I had more than one but the most than the most one. Is that when I see… And this is how that happen also to me. I’m not godfrey free or perfect. Everyone makes these mistakes, but what’s really a annoys meeting and frustrated needs some sometimes seeing people in meeting, and you see that are clearly doing another stuff.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah

Roberto Ferraro: So I say, why are you in this meeting?

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: Okay. If you want to order see what’s sign, Maybe now with this automation compile all this kind of thing. Maybe we will get a point where all the meeting will be recorded, and only the people who are really needs to participate

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: and who really need to give their opinion eye in the meeting.

Rachel Cossar: Right.

Roberto Ferraro: And this is also imagine a meeting where we are ten people. And then, on this time, six had no came there. First, Who what are they doing? In the four, two are talking, and then discussion and all conversation. And the other two are doing other and you see because they move around the things and you see the light, when you don’t think that you see a use… You can see. Because when you move up a screen or you open an email, the light come from one side. Then from the other, then you move your right, it’s clear that you’re doing other stuff. So this is really like, something that in person we would never do. But on video, we see, okay, I will just this and add to that. And maybe you are talking about another the same topic to another person. But you never know. So

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: This is a real challenge.

Rachel Cossar: Yes. It’s… I was having a this exact conversation last week with some colleagues at a conference and It’s always fascinating to me how people overestimate their ability to multitask

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: Right? Because in in these meetings that you describe, people are doing other things, checking emails, checking slack. Whatever. And they’re like, no. But I’m I’m listening. I I hear you. I’m purchased… And it’s like, not effectively. Not really effectively. Right? And I think to your point earlier of not everything needs to be a video meeting, But if if in in an ideal world if A conversation has been set up as a video call. The people on the call should be present and participating in the conversation and active. Right? Because You’re right that this is a shared moment in real time. It’s not like you’re reviewing a recording after the fact. It can be a very human experience, but just because you think you’re being effective as a multitask or that you think that maybe you’re being subtle because that’s the other thing. People are like, I don’t think anyone can really tell that, like, you know, I’m like, doing all this clicking around or whatever. It’s like, it’s, like pretty obvious. So Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: definitely a challenge. And I hopefully one of the things that I think would be amazing is if companies could really set out norms and strategies around, like, what should be a video call what should just be an email? Like, and provide people with tools around how to think about planning their day of communication. Right? Because if everything is a video call and not everything needs to be a video call, then there will be some video calls. Where people are like, I’m just not really an active participant here, so I will do other

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. Two three. It’s so easy to forward a meeting. So it had zero cost for people for the personal forwarding And so the other person say, okay, I have to say, yes, Perhaps we feel you feel the commitment to accept because you can do other things, and it doesn’t cost you anything, but it cost to the other people. Because if there is an person the meeting thing who is not participating who is just in a multi, and then I think the trust goes down. K.

Rachel Cossar: Yep. Absolutely. The last question for today is more related to you like, zooming out more… So so not just specific to the technology. Changes you’ve made, but how do you think Ai specifically is going to come into the equation and help or hurt

Roberto Ferraro: Wow. This is million dollar question. Probably no one has the answer. If if I had it, I will just bet everything on that. But my view… Well, first something that came to my mind when you talk about this different type of meeting. I would love for example, to see an Ai, which is automatically gonna connected to a meeting. Is listening for me. I’m not in the meeting. And then pops up a someone ask you a question, please connect and now be present. I wouldn’t love that. Because even mean that we will be on waiting, for example, on the fence, not proceeding participating not hindering in the meeting And then when something comes up, they connect, They participate and they disconnect. This will be amazing. Mind okay. I’m very, very interested and I love to experiment it. This with all things Ai. Because I think that we wanted it or not, we will have it in the future. So it’s better to put yourself into it. Look. Heavier own opinion and try. Because if not someone else would how to do it. And what I really believe is that

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: separating two type of tasks, the… What I call inside, task and the outside. So I would love to automate everything, my all my whole process of archiving information, classify, all these in tab work, one hundred percent automation. But then on the other side, I will see take zero or zero automation, for the one on one interaction. I I see big opportunity on side to eliminate stuff that we don’t do want to automate everything and to have access instantly to everything that we had. At the same time, for example, on social media, on on emails, I’m starting to see, you know, this automatically Ai generated stuff, which is us. It’s face like It’s just crap. And and you see when this. And so it takes how the human connection from relationship. And and this is a real challenge. So how to automate the good stuff that

Rachel Cossar: Right. Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: stuff that really is worth on committing and to preserve and to in enhance, if we can, the connection and the relationship.

Rachel Cossar: Tonight.

Roberto Ferraro: This will be the previous charge for me.

Rachel Cossar: Right. Yeah. I… Going back to your first first idea. I think Google some of Google’s Ai tools are now able to join meetings on your behalf half. And I think you can also submit topics or points or questions that you had with your bot so that not only do you not need to be there, but anything you wanted to ask during that time can be asked on your behalf. I think I I think there’s a wait list for it. I don’t it’s, like, super publicly available. But you you can check it out Do? I think I I I… I’m not sure the name of it, but check it you know, I’ll I’ll see if I can find it and send it to you after, but So we’re getting there. Or we’re getting there.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. They it would get that. Because I I see that it’s a pain. And it has a pain, probably someone’s going to pay

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: for having this pain or no. I I will pay for that… By the way. Sure.

Rachel Cossar: Wes. Yes. Totally. Yeah. And I think there’s… To me, there’s always this fascinating line between, as you mentioned, automating, repeatable tasks, with consistency, which is super effective. And then, like, removing the human connection entirely. Right? And so there are some tasks that are perfect for this automation and Ai application. And then there are some tasks or elements of of your life that it it’s it would be such a shame to lose to have people know that they’re not ever being reached out to or not likely being reached out to by a human, but they’re being reached out to you by some Ai automation. It’s hard to connect with that and take that seriously.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. Absolutely. And now that you mentioned

Rachel Cossar: You know,

Roberto Ferraro: Another good thing that I really hope we see soon is like transparency. When you see something, okay. This comment is generated from Ai, this was here person. This was edited. So you can just… See when it’s about and when it’s a person behind.

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Got it. I love that point. At virtual Sapiens were so intent on using our technology to help build human skills, and to help the humans develop more communication expertise and confidence. And we’re not gonna replace the human with an Avatar who can communicate better than they can.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: Right? So I I would love also on video to be able to really like almost as a disclaimer. Like, this is me. This is the real me, like, I’m not

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: using an avatar for convenience and scale. So those those are things that I agree. I think that could be like certified human.

Roberto Ferraro: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: Nothing like that could be really great. Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: Good one. Yeah. That.

Rachel Cossar: Awesome. Wonderful. So Thank you so much, Roberto for joining us today. If because you… You’re so active on Linkedin, you’re always sharing really helpful parts of your experience. How… What what is the best way to connect with you If anyone wants to speak with you directly.

Roberto Ferraro: Oh, thank you, Attention by the way for for your card works. And, yeah, the best way would be just sending me commercial request. And I would say also one thing, which I would love to see more. When someone connects with some

Rachel Cossar: Yes sir.

Roberto Ferraro: message. Why are you connecting? So this is also what we talking in the beginning. It’s not like just sending connection request to send connection, but are you connecting me? Oh you I lie. I like what you thought about this? We have this common. So this is also part of the big challenge and the thing we have starting with ourselves, we have to improve to keep all this, let’s say, space and communication. More human. And but of course, it will be very happy to connect with you. The people who is interested in this conversation because I’m sure we have not come on.

Rachel Cossar: Mh. Yes. Wonderful. Alright. Well, You heard it here first. Connect with Roberto. He’s always having to chat. Make sure say why you’re connecting with him, which I agree. I always do that on and It’s really nice. So wonderful. Well, thank you again for your time. And looking forward to speaking with you again soon.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you so much. Was a very fun. Thank you, Too.

Rachel Cossar: Great. Awesome. Alright. So that is that.

Roberto Ferraro: Interesting.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. Yeah. Great conversation.

Roberto Ferraro: Thanks.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. I’m trying out this platform. It’s interesting because it’s really nice. I don’t love the choices they make with where they put speakers. But it’s really nice because after the fact, they give you, like, all kinds of different edited versions, and you can share just like one question, you can share the whole episode. You can share just the audio, like, it’s it’s very convenient in terms of sharing it after the fact.

Roberto Ferraro: Yes. So you’re can… I profile. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: Right. So you can just get all this great content and you don’t like, it’s just easy. Very easy. So we’ll see. I’m I’m trying it out and we’ll we’ll see how it lands with audience members, but I think the conversations themselves. I like to keep them short. So that people can just listen to them like in bite sized pieces.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: But. Thank you. Thank you. What did you think?

Roberto Ferraro: It was really interesting. And I I love the question. And actually, we was like… We we didn’t have a a script. When

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: almost almost wise, which is was a fan part.

Rachel Cossar: Yep.

Roberto Ferraro: And, yeah, I’m very curious to see how this work because actually, this… You… When you publish video or some you ask for half and hour, or one person time.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: It’s a lot of time. And the the usual time is, like, when you read the post or whatever, two minutes, two minutes or less. So just… It’s an investment.

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: See, I’m going to listen to half an hour worth my time.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah.

Roberto Ferraro: To something that Are really interesting. So… And

Rachel Cossar: Tab. Right.

Roberto Ferraro: and I’m very curious to see how it works and what’s your

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Definitely. Well, I’ll keep you posted.

Roberto Ferraro: or.

Rachel Cossar: So I will let you know the air date of your episode, you know, a few days in advance, And then once it’s posted on… I’ll post it first on Linkedin, and then I’ll share a whole bunch of links and things that you can share and include in your work, however you would like.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you. Thank you.

Rachel Cossar: Mh Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: Actually, I I can I ask you one more question? Because yeah search an expert on video. And I’m curious how did I came across? How was my… Everything? Voice, the hand gesture, and everything else as is is there anything that you think it can be improved or

Rachel Cossar: I mean, I think I I think you’ve made so many improvements since

Roberto Ferraro: That’s it.

Rachel Cossar: the… What was it? Like, almost five months ago.

Roberto Ferraro: Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: Or so, maybe less. But, you know, I… I… Yeah. Like, you’re

Roberto Ferraro: And I’m doing. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: It’s just everything about your virtual presence is very very, like, pleasing. It’s very comfortable. It’s like, oh, wow. Like, what what a real human that I can connect with, you know, is really nice Like I love… Like, your lighting is perfect, Your background great. You used hand gestures effectively, but not too much. That that was something I thought you did a better job with than when we last met. So that’s really great. Because I think it can be easy to be like, yeah. So many hand gestures. Yep. Yep. So that was great.

Roberto Ferraro: Yes. Thank you.

Rachel Cossar: Yeah. Yeah. No. I think it’s all good.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you. You’re amazing. But with wow.

Rachel Cossar: Oh, wow. Well, thank you for saying that.

Roberto Ferraro: This is yeah

Rachel Cossar: Always room for improvement.

Roberto Ferraro: Of course, we can go from

Rachel Cossar: Yes.

Roberto Ferraro: you can go from master to master jedi to

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Always.

Roberto Ferraro: Yes.

Rachel Cossar: Always. Great. Awesome. Well, Roberto great to see you.

Roberto Ferraro: Thank you. Let’s keep in touch and

Rachel Cossar: Yes. Absolutely.

Roberto Ferraro: Have a great day. Bye bye.

Rachel Cossar: Alright. You too. Bye.