Getting in the Driver Seat of Your Career (And Life)

Rachel Cossar: Welcome to the 5th season of conversations in the future of work. I am your host, Rachel Cossar, cofounder and CEO at Virtual Sapiens, where we use AI to help professionals master communication. I am thrilled to kick off this season with a new and dear friend and business partner and collaborator, Carrie Lynn Shaw, founder and president of The Salary Bump. And this is all gonna be about getting in the driver’s seat of your career. Right? So there’s a lot of transformation and transition that happens in one’s life, and really being in charge of where you go next in terms of your career is critical. So with that, pass it over to you, Carrie Lynn. Welcome. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. We’re thrilled.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: We’re thrilled.

Rachel Cossar: So if you wouldn’t mind just sharing a little bit about your background and your focus and your work now. Sure.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: So I’m a former CHRO, so I’ve been around the block when it comes to helping employees inside organizations navigate their career. And I always really had this philosophy in every company that I was in is that you are responsible to own and drive your future. Obviously, there’s support required and leadership support and HR support. But if you don’t get into the driver’s seat, you will never become what you’re truly capable of becoming. And no one is gonna care more about you than you. As hard as that is to hear, it’s just a reality. Your leader does not have the full capacity. In some cases, some of your leaders might not care. So the sooner you get in the driver’s seat, the sooner you are going to live the life that you will be more fulfilling and that the life that you want to live. So coming out of being a CHRO, I decided that there’s so much more to this story, and I want to influence people in a different way. So I launched a company called The Salary Bump, and people call me to get unstuck. They call me to help them negotiate their next gig. They call me to get out of bad situations and help them design a road map for the life that they really want. So most people that, I work with, the most fun the people who are most attracted to me are people who are hungry, who are high potential, who want more, and they just don’t know exactly how to get there. And this is the most fun I’ve ever had. It is the best job I’ve ever had. As scary and as hard as it is to be a business owner, I’m right where I’m supposed to be, and I’m really thrilled to be here. So thanks for having me. Awesome, KL. Yes.

Rachel Cossar: So I’m excited to to dive in because we’ll touch on a lot of the work that you’re doing with the salary bump, but then also some of that, you know, early entrepreneurial journey. Right? And then the transition from being a CHRO to, you know, running your own company. So excited to to to dive in. The first question is, of course, you have a diversity of clients, but I’m curious if, you know, there are themes in terms of what you see holding your clients back. Yeah. There is.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: So first and foremost, it’s self doubt. And I would say a real fear of failure. I think another big factor with my clients is is that they don’t actually know what they’re even capable of or what the options even are. As weird as that sounds, most people don’t know they can exit with a package if they proactively raise their hand to exit. Most people are shocked, Mic drop when I tell them that when you are exiting an organization, especially in today’s environment, you should be saying, hey. I think it’s time for me to move on. I know you’re in a tough place financially. How will we make this work for both of us? And I raise my hand for a package. It is I I have not had a single client where their company has said no. So there are unknowns. The other big unknown is that people don’t realize they can negotiate. They don’t realize that they should be in the driver’s seat, and they should be having the conversations that matter. But the fact of the matter is I didn’t know I could negotiate for the 1st 20 years of my career, honestly. I thought I needed to do good work and the money would come. Or I was in a sales environment. I sold cars to pay for college, and the money that I earned was based on me. How much I sold, the relationships I built. So I I walked in thinking that the company like, when I moved into a corporate environment, I had zero clue Yeah. What that structure was, what that stood for, and I just assumed, wow. They made me an offer. Great. I’ll take it. I’m excited. I’m hungry. Let’s rock and roll. And then every year, they gave me more money or they gave me a promotion, and I was like, wow. This is looking really good. I I really didn’t get it. And then what when I did get it some years in, I realized that or I was told that women are terrible negotiators. So I had in my head, a, I didn’t know I could. B, well, I’m probably bad at it because I’m a woman. And and if I did want to try, I was afraid they might see me as greedy. That that they might say no or think that it was more about the money than it was about the work. And I am not unique. This is very much every client that I talk to, almost every person that I talk to, every cocktail party I go to, every barbecue I go to. There is a lot of uncertainty. And and, therefore, they choose to back away and not ask, because that’s just easier, or they make assumptions that, you know, my company is gonna take care of me, and that’s that’s just not a reality.

Rachel Cossar: And are you do you work mostly with women, or are you working with men and women? I work with both.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: A couple you know, last year, I worked with the CEO and a automotive technician and everything in between. It it women are more attracted to me somehow. I must be resonating with my content. I’m a big content creator on LinkedIn. So more women seem to to come my way, but I am certainly completely, inclusive and and work with the people who are attracted to me are the ones who are hungry and who want to grow, and so that that’s men and women. Have you have you noticed some of those trends?

Rachel Cossar: Like, the women you’re working with, are they, like, categorically having a harder time with negotiation than the men? Or or is it just that negotiation’s kind of hard for anyone in that, like, employed position? Statistically, less than 50% of people are negotiating.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: So that’s men and women. So there’s a large pool of people. It’s just a question of whether you wanna ask for help or not or whether you wanna get unstuck. So, the women that I work with meet those stats, and the stats for women are less than 30%, and that number is even lower for people of color. So it’s really just a question of what do you want to do about it. And everyone that I meet struggles with formulating the story Yeah. And formulating how do I, first of all, do the market research and make sure that I am getting I’m even asking for what I’m worth or or what the market is paying. Most people don’t do that. Mhmm. And secondarily, how do I frame it in a way that comes across really genuine, really authentic, and as a win win? So I the one of the most important things we do in prepping for a negotiation is creating that win win environment because you don’t wanna walk in guns ablaze, and this is not a win lose scenario. But most people have been taught, and whether that is through the movies or television, through what we know of attorneys, there’s a winner and a loser when it comes to negotiation. And in this case, there is no loser unless there’s aggressive or inappropriate behaviors or, you don’t wanna start your relationship off as the employer or the employee in this ugly fight. You wanna start this off as, how do we create a win win here? You want me? I want you. We’re ready to rock and roll and get started. So how do we have this conversation that feels really good for both of us? Mhmm. And I will guide my clients to say that at the beginning of the conversation and then stop talking and see what the person on the other end says. I will throw in one last really critical fundamental thing that people need to know and and is one of the reasons you know, we’re talking about fear and self doubt and the reasons why they don’t ask. Everyone on the other end is expecting you to ask. That’s critical to know as a CHRO who’s made thousands and thousands of offers. Yeah. And, statistically, I I think the number’s approximately 90% of the time when you ask, you will get more. Yeah.

Rachel Cossar: Not to say for sure you’re going to get everything you’ve asked for, but you will get more 90% of the time. Yeah.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: So you’ve got 2 big wins. The person’s expecting it, and 90% of the time, they’re gonna say yes to something. Yes. So what are you waiting for? Right. Ugh, man. That’s so, there’s so much in that.

Rachel Cossar: Let’s let’s dig a little deeper into some of these misconceptions around negotiating. Right? So you’ve mentioned a few of them. How like, there there’s another one that I’ve heard around, you know, the person who is going to or or a a great way to come away from a negotiation is, like, knowing what your, like, lowest offer is or, like, what you will say no to or when you’ll walk away. Like, what are what are your thoughts around that? Is that something that you think is a good strategy, or you think that’s kind of missing the point of the fact that this should be, like, a win win cocreated kind of solution? Oh, gosh.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: It’s such a hard question to answer because we all have a walk away number. Yeah. Right? But, I tend to like to look at it from an abundant mindset versus scarcity mindset. Mhmm. So that approach is a scarcity mindset. Mhmm. And an abundant mindset is looking at what the possibility is. So, yes, in the back of your mind, you know, I made a $100,000 at my old company. I’m not gonna go lower. I’m looking to grow. The number I have in mind, you know, based on my research is a 150. I’d probably accept 140, but I’m going for the 150 because that’s like, so you’re going to run that math in your number in your brain. Yeah. But, actually, I’m gonna pivot a little bit to one of the biggest misconceptions that I see most often is people don’t think beyond the salary. Right. So the misconception is we talk about salary expectations or we’re asked about what are your salary expectations when the reality is every company has a unique comp philosophy, and every company has a different structure to their total comp package. Right. That might include salary, bonus, equity. That might just include salary and bonus. That might include commission. That includes health care benefits. That includes potentially professional development. That might include a car. That might include insurance. That might include gas. If you’re a CEO, it might include an airplane. If you’re not a CEO, it might include your train ticket to work. There are so many levers and elements that make up your total comp package. I’ll I’ll give you just a quick it’s one of my favorite examples to share. I share it often on podcast. I worked, as I told you, with an automotive technician. This was an hourly worker who had received a master technician certification and wanted to get more more money per hour. What we walked away with was a 40% total comp increase, and that was a few more bucks an hour. That was a car, insurance, and gas Yeah. Which was out of pocket about 1500 a month with his car payment, his insurance, and his gas. That after tax money he gets put back in his pocket Ding ding ding ding ding. And invest. Right? We got a few bucks more an hour, and we co created a beautiful bonus program that was, that he got paid more as he delivered more. Mhmm. So he was hungry. He was ready to go after it. So there was no loss for the company. They were like, how can we lose? The guy’s gonna produce more. We’re gonna make more, and then we give him a piece of that. It was such a no brainer. And this cherry on top, we got him and his wife’s health care covered. Yeah. Thousand another $1,000 a month out of pocket he was paying. So not only did we get more money hourly, more money in his bonus structure, we got more money here. So it is a big misconception because people just get blocked by what’s coming in every month. They don’t realize that there’s so much more beyond that picture and so many layers to pull, and that’s where the real fun happens. And even if you get what you want salary wise, you get the 1.50, we’re still asking for the other stuff because that’s part of building this beautiful package. Right.

Rachel Cossar: I’m so glad you brought that up because there’s also the education that we have around that, like, taxable income versus, like, using either post tax or, you know, pretax, essentially, dollars and and lowering your tax bill. Like, that’s a real financial strategy. You know? And Yeah. Absolutely. That’s something that I think people can easily lose sight of. Yeah. And there’s tuition reimbursement there.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: I mean, I I remember back in my early days when I first moved into corporate, they paid for my undergrad. They paid for my graduate degree. Yep. There’s even tuition reimbursement. Like, after the fact, they will pay off student loans. There’s childcare. There’s all these elements that one of the first things we do, when I work with a client is we get grounded to what matters to you. Yeah. Like, what are what are you what are your values? For some people, it’s not the money, it’s the time off, or flexible work schedule. I always make sure we get both because you shouldn’t be sacrificing the money for a flexible work schedule. You can have both. Yes. But there are cases where use the 100 to 150 example. They didn’t quite meet us at a 150. They met us at 140, but we negotiated a flexible work schedule. Yep. That also really, really mattered. So maybe the offer the other offer you have on the table at 1:50 with 5 days a week in office, and the one at 1:40 only made you to go in once or twice a week. That one is a little sweeter, and so, you know, we might sacrifice certain things for those things that really matter. Right.

Rachel Cossar: And do you, generally advise people to go in with a much higher, either number of requests, like, knowing that some of them are gonna be taken off the table or, like, a much higher number knowing that, like, it’ll probably be lower? But if someone if someone is happy at 150, would you say, like, okay. Well, then let’s go in and ask for 165.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: So first and foremost, I don’t ever direct anyone, guide anyone to answer that question first. You always want to get grounded to what the comp philosophy is inside the organization and what range they’ve budgeted for. Yeah. So if they ask you that that question, that is a response. Well, given the fact that every company that I’m talking to has a different comp philosophy, it’d be helpful if you could get me grounded to what your philosophy is and what you’ve budgeted for this role. Yep. That is your answer. If you’re backed into a corner and by the way, when you’re doing your research or when I’m doing the research for you, we’re we’re only talking in ranges. We will never talk in pure numbers. Mhmm. So and it’s important that you talk in ranges because you don’t wanna back yourself into a corner. So the range let’s say the the range of the role is 140 to 175, and you’d be happy at 150. But let’s say that’s the range. And if you have to answer that question, you say the range that I’ve, done my homework on in the market is 140 to 175. But I’d love to know further what your comp philosophy is and what your total comp picture looks like. Yeah. And then another secret question that I love to guide people to ask is during when you’re having that conversation, you could also say, well, what does a candidate at 175 look like for you? Mhmm. When they say the top end of their range. Mhmm. Ask that question because then your answers throughout the rest of that interview will all come back to that person who’s going at the 175. Well, I’m gonna show them. And then when you get to the negotiation, well, you know, when we first spoke, you gave me the indicator of the one of the person at the high end. Ding, ding, ding. These are the reasons why I believe I should be there. Right.

Rachel Cossar: The other thing, because that that question around budget range, I always, even within my seat as the CEO and business development lead for Virtual Sapiens when we get to the budget talks, And they’re like, well, how much does this cost? You know, if we’re talking about a specific project, I I do always ask, like, what, you know, what kind of budget range have you put aside for this kind of work or this bud for this project. And on so many occasions, they’ve quoted me so much higher than I would have expected. And I I’m like, oh my god. Thank goodness you didn’t talk first. Seriously. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s, like, you always leave the room to be positively surprised. Right? Yes. I love that.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: Thank you so much for sharing that because it does also apply to business owners. Yes. Right? Like, what feels good for you? And even, you know, like, this feels good for me. Well, here’s what we normally work with, but let’s talk about it. Let’s talk how we can hold close that gap because, you know, if you feel also an energy match Mhmm. So let’s say you and I thought we might work together, and you your normal per hour rate is 500 an hour. And I put on the table that, you know, I can afford 300. Mhmm. And, like and you feel like Kale is the kind of person I wanna work with. Her energy vibes, I think she’s great from a partner perspective. I think that her network would be really helpful. Like, you’re thinking bigger picture. You’re not just like, $500. I’m not I’m not going down to 300. Yeah. You’re going to Vibe. And if you don’t, you’re gonna say, unfortunately, I can’t meet you there. But if there’s a vibe, you are going to try to say, Kale, there’s something about this energy that I really feel. I hope you feel it too. It seems like you do. Normally, I charge 500. How how can, you know, how can we close that gap? And I might say, you know what, Rachel? I can make I can go up to 400, and maybe I can pay you that extra 100 on the back end after I land certain deals. Or Right. That’s beautiful, genuine, authentic, real, vulnerable negotiation. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.

Rachel Cossar: So I really hope people are taking notes because this is just gold. You know? So changing tracks a little. Right? You’ve you’ve mentioned so much of the abundantly human parts of your work in coaching. So how do you see AI coming into this the career development space in a positive way, but also maybe in a not so positive way?

Keri-Lynne Shaw: Well, I only see there’s great benefits from utilizing AI tools. And I think the biggest thing that I think people can benefit from is using AI for the things that they don’t love doing, for the things that AI is better at doing, for formulating your words. I’m married to a German, and English is not his first language. If he’s not using AI on a regular basis to formulate his emails and it it he is painstaking time that he wastes in going not waste. I I I mean this in the nicest of ways, but AI is so helpful to formulate. I English is my first language, and I do the same thing over emails. Is that saying right? Like, use AI for the things that are gonna help you get better so that you can spend your energy on the things that you’re really good at Mhmm. The things that you love and the things that are making a bigger impact on the world. You have to prioritize your time and your energy. And so utilizing AI to help you grow, whether that be feeding it information, like, I wanna grow my career. I feel stuck. How can I do that? Can you give me some tips? You know, like, there are a million ways that you can use AI. And, you know, I would if you’re okay with it, to share why I, as a business owner, am partnering with virtual sapiens. Yeah. Of course. So I everything I do is bespoke. Everything I do besides my digital program that I created, so there are people who wanna go that route, and that’s perfect. But with my one on one, what I find is people I’m prepping people for the interview of their dreams, and I can only do so much. Yeah. I can give them feedback on how they’re showing up with me. I can give them feedback on how they’re answering certain questions. But what the tool I I only have so much time to give. I and my time is to my clients, 1st and foremost. There’s also a pipelining element of what I do. So in order for me to have time to do all of that and grow my business, I need to be smart about the portions that I can have tools like AI, like yours, help me with. And that is prepping for that interview. How are you showing up virtually? How often are you using likes? How often are you using umms? What’s the tone? What’s the lighting? What’s the speed? How are you speaking? You are on screen so much of your time, not even beyond the interview, that utilizing this tool just made so, so, so much sense for me. Yeah. And it it then allows me the the space and the time and the energy to work on the things that really matter and are driving my business forward. And and quite honestly, your tool does a much better job than I would do in giving feedback. And then I can use the results of that to give my clients feedback because we can go through the video. Right. So that’s just an example, but I think there are so many beautiful benefits of it. Will it ever replace human connection? I can’t imagine that it ever replaces human connection because there is energy that you feel. And I who knows? I can’t predict the future, but, use it for what works for you to help empower your conversations, to help frame your conversations, to help articulate your words, but it won’t replace connection in my opinion. Yes. No, Kayl. I agree.

Rachel Cossar: I I love what you said about leveraging AI to do the things that AI is distinctly designed and able to do very well. And then hopefully also that correlates with some of the things that you just don’t wanna spend your time doing or that you can’t spend your time doing or that you’re not as skilled in. Right? It’s, it’s really amazing for partners such as yourselves. Your your expertise is so deep in the career and negotiation and and all those spaces and mindset. And then we we our AI goes really deep into the communication behaviors and the science behind that. And so it’s wonderful because communication is clearly also such a critical part of the work that you do that you can have this tool to that that your clients can use in their in their own time. Yes. It’s a sales tool. Think about salespeople.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: Think about, you know, how many crappy sales pitches I get on LinkedIn every day. Yep. Where people come, there is it’s all and see, that’s an AI generated outreach where they just slap, you know, something that’s it it comes across really gross. And if I if if it came let’s say it wasn’t gross and I said yes to it. Your tool would help them to show up as a different salesperson because they know and how they’re showing up on camera and how to fine tune things. So, this isn’t about your tool. It’s just an example, and it’s obvious because it’s right in front of me. I think there’s so many wonderful ways that, we can just keep honing our craft. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you.

Rachel Cossar: Thank you for sharing that, Cale. I certainly appreciate it, and, I think our audience will find it interesting. So just to before we wrap up, I, the time has flown by. I would love to hear, like, switching tracks again now to your experience as a business owner now in your own rights, like, what has been your biggest challenge? Oh, gosh. I have to pick 1? I know.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: Right? That’s I had I was on on a podcast earlier today.

Rachel Cossar: I was asked the same question, and I was like, okay. It’s a really unfair question.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: It’s a very, very hard question to answer. I’m a risk taker. I always have been. I was considered in my career high potential go getter, go after it. So my ideal client is sort of a younger version of me, like, just like that bright eyed, go for it. Don’t know how I’m gonna get there. We’ll break some rules. Probably won’t break a lot of glass, but, you know, we’ll navigate saying yes and going all in on me and leaving a very comfortable salary as a CHRO was probably the biggest fear. Yep. And to overcome that okay. I think I know how I’m gonna answer this. Redefining what success looks like for me. Uh-huh. Because I spent my entire career in a corporate setting where my success was defined on my salary and my title. And I made it to the c suite, and that felt really good. And the salary was there, and the bonuses were there, and the equity was there, to now Sam going all in on me was quite possibly one well, it’s the 2nd scariest thing I’ve ever done in my life. And I I was sort of tiptoeing, knowing that I was gonna go all in, but, like, how much time am I gonna give this? What if is this going to be a viable business? What am I investing in? What am I spending money on before I’m actually having money coming in? Like, these are scary things. Like, I went all in. I hired 4 coaches. I you know, for all different reasons, that was the best investment I could have possibly given. I hired a marketing firm. I had no business spending $4,000 a month on marketing. None. 0. And the old KL would have would have backed off and waited tiptoed Yeah. Till the money came in. So I started a little bit with the tiptoeing, and I was like, this isn’t working. And it was my husband that really pushed me to say, you’re going all in. If this is gonna be about you go all in. Yeah. And he pushed me to do that, and I’m so so glad I did. Looking back now, I mean, it hasn’t even been one full year. It was a profitable year. It was a year of incredible growth. I don’t think I’ve grown this much in the last 10 years combined. Yep. And I’m a learner. I I want to always grow. But, like, betting on me, I would say, was, like, the oh, shit moment of of for sure of my career. As I said, looking back, I’m so glad I did it. It really worked, but it could’ve not. I you know, I would might not be sitting in front of you here today. And I just think that believing in myself and I do think for some people doing it on the side before they go all in is is is probably a safer bet. If I had been smart, I probably would have done that. But I’m yeah. It’s I love a good challenge. I I think there were moments where I I definitely doubted myself and having the coaches on my business coach, my professional coach, my trauma coach, my hormone coach, like, all the things that I needed. I had a team of people that were rooting for me, that were helping me with my daily tasks and marching orders and the things I needed to do to be successful. I had the person get any out of my head. Yeah. So I think those were the 4 best gifts that I gave myself. And I think I I don’t know that I would’ve I don’t know if I would’ve navigated it. And certainly not as fast. Yeah. I might have given up because then the money the profit you know, I might have said, oh, this isn’t as viable. So, yeah, is that a is that a weird answer to your question because it was a lot. It was a lot to overcome. Yeah. No. Of course.

Rachel Cossar: I mean, I I know, like, even just with myself and having made the leap from a nice, cushy, high paying job to founding VirtualSapiens, like, during the pandemic. Oh my god. But there’s I don’t know. At least for me, there was this feeling of with this, like, inner knowledge of, like, the time is now to take this leap. And if I don’t do this, I will definitely regret it. And I will always wonder, like, why did I hold myself back, you know, for the safer play? Yeah. And do you know look.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: It can be this question can be for anyone, a business owner, someone who’s looking to take a leap from their, you know, comfortable, safe job. Mhmm. But know they want more in their career. Like, there’s gonna be lots of challenges. And usually, the biggest challenge is yourself Yeah. And getting out of your head Yeah. Getting out of your own way. And that’s why I think it just pays to have someone in your corner. I hope you had someone when you were launching your your company. It was a good gift to give myself. Thank you to my husband, Reiner. Yes. I know. That’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

Rachel Cossar: So, Kayl, we’re we’re at the end of the show now, and, honestly, that was such a valuable and insightful conversation. So thank you so much. If there’s anything else you wanted to share with our audience, and importantly, how can our audience connect with you directly? Oh gosh. Thank you.

Keri-Lynne Shaw: Well, the very best place that you can connect with me is on LinkedIn. Carrie Lynn Shaw. I post almost every day. I’m very, very active, very vocal, a lot of thought leadership. I share a lot of secrets, that help you, so a lot of free secrets. But I meet about 20 new people a week, for coffee virtually, 30 minutes, and just learn about them. And if there’s ever anything I can do to help, that’s a totally free call. But, yeah, check me out on LinkedIn, and then the salary bump.com is where you can find what it would look like to actually work with me. You can find my digital program there and my 1 on 1 stuff. Awesome. Great. We’ll include that in our posting as well.

Rachel Cossar: And thank you so much, Cale. And as always, thanks to our audience for, for joining. Thanks for having me.