Psychological Safety in the FoW

Rachel Cossar: Everyone, and welcome to another episode of conversations in the future of work. I am your host, Rachel Kosser. I’m really excited today to get into a concept that’s really critical when we think about future of work, workplaces, culture, relationships, and that’s psychological safety. What it is, what it isn’t, how to get there. And I’m really excited to welcome Nokul Madani. Please welcome. So good to see you. 

Nogol Madani: Thank you so much, Rachel, for having me, and I’m super excited to talk about psychological safety and future of work. Yes. Absolutely. 

Rachel Cossar: So if you don’t mind, just for the audience, sharing a little bit about your body of work, what you spend most of your time on now. Yeah. 

Nogol Madani: So, basically, you know, I’m a founder and CEO of Glee Factor. Glee Factor is an organization dedicated to help leaders, build, like, high performing, inclusive, and future ready teams through the concept of psychological safety. At this time that we see that there’s a lot of change. There’s a lot of uncertainty. The majority of our work is really around educating people on the concept of psychological safety and why it matters and also helping them integrate it and implement it. Awesome. Great. 

Rachel Cossar: So let’s dive right in. How do you define psychological safety? 

Nogol Madani: I mean, you know, like, I think that I would just share the, more scholar comments and, you know, definitions from Amy Edmondson and others. The psychological safety is that belief shared by every team member that they can take interpersonal risks. Meaning that when we feel comfortable asking for help, sharing our ideas, discussing problems and challenges, sharing mistakes without a fear of retaliation, judgment, or major consequences, that’s when we’re gonna contribute our best. And it’s gonna lead to more inclusion, creativity, communication, and collaboration. But to just give that feeling of what psychological safety is, I think it’s just that feeling that it happens for so many of us that we’re in environment that we think that, okay, I can be myself. I can share my thoughts. I can voice out opinions. And, like, you know, vice versa, you can be actually an environment that you just say, okay. No. Like, I cannot take any risks here. And, I think you you actually as you were introducing me, you mentioned something very interesting. What psychological safety is, but what is not psychological safety? Because I think that it’s a very trendy word, especially in the last few years after, like, post pandemic. And, I think that we use it a lot, but we don’t necessarily know exactly what it means. For so many people, psychological safety means, comfort, means pampering people, means actually even safe space, and they’re not the same. We can use psychological safety to create a safe space if teams are going through crisis, if we have a newcomer or, you know, new employee. But at the core of it, you want to have hard conversations. You wanna actually disagree with each other. You want to be able to discuss challenges and, you know, complicated issues. And that’s why, like contrary to what the majority of people think that psychological safety means comfortable environment, that only happens if we don’t have high performance standards. If we do have high performance standards with high psychological safety, we’re looking at learning zones, not comfort zones. We’re looking at performance zones, meaning that there is an opportunity for performance and for learning, because of the climate and because of the environment. Right. That’s a that’s a really important distinction, I think. 

Rachel Cossar: We see that a lot in our work, with people getting feedback. Right? And, oftentimes, especially when we’re talking about communication and leadership styles, like, people have a comfort zone. People have a way that they, like, have been communicating for most of their lives. Right? And so then when they get feedback that, like, oh, you know, this is how that’s coming across. Here are some other options for you to consider. They’re like, okay. But that doesn’t feel authentic. It doesn’t feel comfortable because it’s not what I’m used to. And so you get this really interesting kind of tension between growth and stretching yourself and those things being uncomfortable along with these kind of concepts of, like, you know, being okay sitting in the discomfort or you’re like so how do you kind of rectify or balance that tension? Yeah. 

Nogol Madani: I mean, you know, like, you mentioned something, like, very important. I think that the most important thing is that we like it’s a leadership role in how we’re discussing communication and like, you know, all these like behaviors, risky behaviors. It’s interesting. I usually ask we usually ask during our programs, what kills, like with specific teams we’re working with leadership teams to say, what kills psychological safety and hinder teams from performance? And there’s so many, like, comments around feedback. Yeah. Like how we’re receiving feedback, how we’re giving feedback, how we’re asking for feedback, but no one is giving it to us. We’re giving feedback, but no one is following up on it or they’re not, like, integrating it. So I think that is just a more holistic approach of like how you look at it. And I think the most important thing is that if the leadership is on board to sit in that discomfort Mhmm. You know, usually we cannot we always say to leaders that or to teams, they said, you know, you cannot take more risks than your leaders, and you’re not gonna be more vulnerable than your leaders. So if this is something that it’s somehow around, like, different leadership positions and team members, definitely something that it can be discussed with. You can talk about it. You can talk about the challenges you’re going through it. But just doing this with an individual lens, it might be, like, uncomfortable for people. But also another thing that Rachel, I see a lot with our work, with our methodologies that is a lot around experimentation similar to work is that if people sit through that discomfort in a non risky environment and where it’s not, like, you know, it’s not gonna be a huge consequence to their, like, practice of new ways of communication and they see the impact of it, there’s a higher chance that they’re just gonna somehow adapt or activate that certain way of communication and certain way of behavior, but going to people and asking them, okay, like this is the way to do it. Definitely. You know, we always give this example that the only people in the world wants to change their like, babies in wet diapers. Other than that, none of us. Right. Totally. Yes. Yes. Totally. The idea is that what is that impact of change unless we know that the benefit of change is actually a bit more than the cost to go through it. Right. 

Rachel Cossar: So you mentioned a lot of this has to start with leaders and and the, like, the tone that they’re setting. So if if if I’m a leader and I’m listening to this, like, what and I’m recognizing, like, oh, I don’t think that we have a very psychologically safe environment at the at the office or remotely. Like, what what are some things that they can think about in terms of, like, yeah, just starting starting on this journey? I think that, you know, that’s a that’s a great question. 

Nogol Madani: Like, you’re there are like a few stats that I think that are quite disappointing that after all these years talking about psychological safety and being become quite popular as a content and as a topic, still only 45% of leaders around the world know why what it what it is exactly and why it matters, and only 26% of them know how to integrate it. Yep. So I guess, like, having that knowledge of what psychological safety means is extremely key. Just, you know, if it’s reading, if it’s through workshops with experts, that’s the first thing. The other thing is the question of implementation. Like, in the book of fearless organization by Amy Edmondson, she actually talks about three three, like, things that we can do or three foundations to foster psychological safety. Is that how you set the tone and how you set a stage? Meaning that if you’re entering a meeting or a project, like, how are we defining failure? How are we defining innovation? How are we discussing that feedback? Like, you can actually set the tone and creating a new context for risk taking. That’s something that I think is extremely key. Another thing is inviting participation. Like, you know, I I will share you a few mess I will share actually a few examples of that, but the majority of time, if even we can change the language of our questions, we can like, people can voice out their ideas easier, you know? So how can we change our language, our the conditions so that people feel that comfort? And then and I have to say that it doesn’t mean that you’re gonna be comfortable. It doesn’t mean that you’re sitting there. No. But it’s gonna make it doable. Yeah. The whole idea is that it’s you’re still probably gonna be a bit okay. Like, I’m talking about this or I’m sharing my idea, but at least it’s feasible for you to do. And the final thing is that, okay, we create an environment. Leaders create an environment where they can, you know, people can voice out their ideas. The question is that how do you respond? Right. And the idea is to respond productively. And, you know, we discussed about this that so many leaders, I don’t know if this happens in your work as well, come to us and said, but if we wanna listen to everyone, then we cannot make a decision. I said, you know what? This is two different things. Like people sharing their ideas and having the opportunity to voice out what they think is really different. It doesn’t mean that it’s guaranteed that their idea is gonna be the one who’s been selected. You’re just hearing out and we say that, okay. I really appreciate you sharing, but this is our path forward because of this, this, this. Mhmm. You know, so you’re tapping on the collective intelligence, but that doesn’t mean that you just have to go with those ideas. So I guess these are just just the three frameworks of setting the stage, inviting participation, and answering productively, responding productively. But some of the small things that leaders can do, is to commit to small, consistent actions. You know, when we talk about behavioral change and if we consider that you want to change behaviors within the team, we want them to do things differently. We want them to communicate differently, to collaborate differently, to create differently. It’s gonna take a while. Yeah. You know? So you let you have to look at it as like a gym process. Like, there are some people that they think they say that, can we just go through this process in two days? I said, no. You can’t. Because you cannot it’s the same thing as you cannot have, like, two burgers and then just, you know, go to gyms and then have burgers all the time. And after five weeks, so how come nothing has changed? Like, that consistency in the behavior is what is gonna actually create that sustainable change. Mhmm. A few things for interactions that I can share with you with for leaders. First of all, that knowledge. And I think that knowledge and creating that common language is extremely important for leaders and also create like, for their teams. The other idea is just becoming sensitive. You know, what we see as a result of some of the changes in our, programs is that it doesn’t mean that people are gonna feel psychologically safe, like, three weeks after or three months after. We have to be realistic. However, they’re sensitized. They actually have that sensibility. They say, okay, this conversation that this is not this is a red flag or actually this is the way. So they get to see the behavior that it’s a promoter of psychological safety and performance, team performance, and it’s inhibitor. And that’s already a great place to be. But a few ideas to share is that how we start our meetings for you. Like doing check ins, like mindset check ins. Mhmm. You know, icebreakers. Like, the research shows that if people talk for something that it’s not that risky Yeah. In the meeting, they answer a question that is not really like rocket science, there’s a higher chance that they’re gonna contribute later on. So if you’re asking like something and, you know, we always say that don’t ask, like, how was your weekend and all of that? Because at the end of the day, there are some people that they are more extrovert or introvert than the others. Mhmm. But you really wanna have designed conversations and designed questions. For example, like if you wanna share how you feel or how you enter in this meeting in one word, what would it be? What is your weather status now? Mhmm. Are you rainy? Are you sunny? Like the one of the fun questions that we ask is that if you were stationary, what would you be? And people love that question because they love to talk about themselves. So I’m gonna be a highlight because I’m the one bringing all the ideas together and highlight. And this is already creating a context for people that, okay, I can take a risk. The other thing, as I said, is just changing, language. Really changing language. Instead of saying to people, like, does anyone have any other ideas? Like or any diverse ideas? Like, obviously, no one’s gonna say that I have actually a very different idea. Yes. But it’s quite Right. You say that, what are we missing? 

Rachel Cossar: Mhmm. 

Nogol Madani: What are the other perspectives that we’re missing here? So you see just the questions are rooted in curiosity and for parties to take them. And that’s actually makes a huge difference. Right. Yeah. It’s really interesting. 

Rachel Cossar: There’s a lot, you know, in the way that when I facilitate or when I witness other facilitations. Right? It’s the way there’s one other thing that I think I would also add to what you shared, which is really which can be, I think, really uncomfortable for people is, like, waiting after you’ve asked a question. Like, especially virtually, when you do ask a question like that or any question really and people don’t, like, immediately start answering, you’re like, okay. Well, no worries. Anyways, let’s move on. Right? After, like and so I I I, you know, as general rule, and this can often make other people uncomfortable, but I’m like, I’m gonna wait seven seconds. Yes. I love the account. And it’s actually incredible because I mean, at the end of the day, if you want someone to share a thought provoking or, like, a real thought or idea, you have to give them a second, like, seven seconds after I have to give them a bit of time so that you can, like, just Exactly. Exactly. 

Nogol Madani: Also get the courage. You know, I always ask these questions that how many times you’re sitting in meetings. It happened to me all the time, that you’re thinking that, oh my goodness, I wanna share this, I wanna share this, I wanna share this. And you finally didn’t get the guts to do it. So that silence, that opportunity, it just says, you know what, like, let’s do it. And I see that all the time also. I’m facilitating all the time. I say, you know what? If there’s anyone who wants to share and it’s always interesting because we say that when people are small, if we go to go to breakout rooms, for example, like, no one wants to come back. Like, you’re closing the breakout room, no one wants to come back. Then you come back, you wanna do the debrief. And you said, okay. What went to? No one talks. Because it’s a larger setup. It’s a riskier setup. Mhmm. 

Rachel Cossar: So that’s also another thing that you create some, like, smaller conversations rather than, like, big ones. 

Nogol Madani: And also this idea that sometimes, like, you know what? I’m just gonna wait for, like, thirty seconds to see if anyone wants to take the courage to share. And you see that at some point, one person does it and then everyone follows. Yes. Totally. Yeah. 

Rachel Cossar: It’s it’s, the setup I think is so much more important than people realize. Even just setting expectations around participation too. Like Mhmm. I think and we’ll get into this in the next question, but especially, like, virtually Yes. It’s so much easier to take a back seat and not participate, and it’s so much harder as a facilitator to include people or get people really talking and sharing bringing their voices into the space. But I found that setting an expectation upfront of, like, the I like, this isn’t a sermon. Like, it’s not just me talking at you. Yeah. So, like, you know, the floor is always open, but I will be calling off people. You know? And, like, so and you I kind of, like, it’s almost like when you’re dealing with children and you’re like, we’re gonna go here. Yes. This is our next step. You can walk with me or I can carry you there, but we are going here, you know, which is just, you know, it’s just kind of an interesting level setting or or Yes. You know? Because people kinda need to it’s almost it can I find it can sometimes be, like, too easy for people to not participate? Mhmm. For sure. And so it’s not even like, oh, people really wanna participate, but the leader isn’t making the space safe enough. It’s like, actually, a lot of people are totally fine just like Sitting back and listening. Exactly. 

Nogol Madani: Maybe sometimes even disengaging. 

Rachel Cossar: But, you know Yeah. 

Nogol Madani: I love what we are talking a lot about because we’re talking about facilitation. Yeah. And one of the things that I always tell our clients, it’s a leader or a team member said that you have to wear your facilitation hat. Mhmm. You have to set up the stage. You have to hold the space for conversations to take place, and you have to design conversations. Like, you literally have to design moments to your point. We are going here. This is what we’re gonna do and invite participation. Mhmm. You know, we cannot just it it doesn’t, you know, I think dynamics and change, like cultures, they’re not built like by luck and intuition. There are some people who are great at it, but that doesn’t become a norm or dynamic or part of, you know, like, how you do things unless it’s really designed. Right. Right. Absolutely. 

Rachel Cossar: So, switching gear a little bit. Right? And this is something you and I have talked about a lot. But how do you see, like, AI and technology, but also the virtual world of work Mhmm. Hybrid, you know, influencing culture within organizations? It’s a big question. That’s a good question. 

Nogol Madani: You know, I started to work on psychological safety back in 02/2019. And when I started that, I remember that I used to go to see leaders either traditional ones or like, you know, more like, you know, forward thinking a startup lens. And they were not accepting of like psychological safety or like the concept. So they have, like, a different, and I would say so many times wrong definition of culture. Like, the traditional ones that say we’re not here for therapy. People are not here to be happy. They’re here to be paid. And then the tech founders mostly will say that, but we have, like, a free beer and pizza on Friday. We have our ping pong table. So both ways, I would say that they were just like, they were getting it wrong. And then when COVID hit and we started with this virtual world of work, I think people understood that culture and team dynamic is beyond perks and that they are the necessity for people to perform, basically. So I think that was maybe some of the positive, like, impacts of, like, what happened during the last, like, five years. Mhmm. But I would say that still, when we talk about culture or team dynamics, psychological safety, it’s still not a priority for majority of teams. However, I believe that with the age of AI, with the future of work, like, it’s a question of surviving or not making it as an organization. You know, as much as I think that we need to build our in technological infrastructure to get ready for what’s coming, we need to actually build our culture, cultural infrastructure. And we discussed this together already that, like, the World Economic Forum, everywhere you look at, when you look at the skills of the future, obviously, like, you know, AI fluency and literacy and being able to work with technology is one of the most important parts. But the human skills, the strategic skills, as you mentioned, that I absolutely love are gonna be key. So my concern is that how we can shift from a world of work, where these things, they were always not important and they were always, like, pushed to the sidelines to now being center of things. Right. And that’s where I believe that, like, that proactivity from leadership and from teams is is extremely important to take the right steps towards what’s coming and what’s happening. Right. 

Rachel Cossar: I think you make a really good point of, you know, when COVID happened, people really had to face the need to be more intentional about culture and what what your own culture is organizationally and how you can support that through, you know, more intentional designed conversations and interactions. Right? Or or platforms and systems. Right? And I think at a core, a lot of that a lot of culture is determined through the way people communicate. Right? And not necessarily like, oh, hello. I’m gonna talk to you on the phone, but via email at Slack. Like, how how are people interacting and collaborating, document sharing, etcetera. Right? And then, of course, then then, of course, there are more of the experiences, which are either in an office or, offsites and and things like that. But it’s true that there’s been a huge disruption and, hopefully, to your point, an opportunity to bring some of these principles that allow people to show up more fully Yes. Participate more fully. Exactly. 

Nogol Madani: And creating, you know, the environments for more of those participations. Right. You know, like, that’s I think one of the key important things is that we cannot expect individuals and team members to show up fully if they’re working in an environment that them showing up as they’re themselves might mean, like, tragic consequences, them discussing challenges or challenging the status quo. So I think that it’s really like the role of leadership to create that environment. You know, the other thing that we’re talking about hybrid workplace and in general technology, like we’re talking a lot about experimentation and people testing new ideas. You know, we’ve already, like, talked about that. But then you go and work with teams and the majority of them, they don’t even have a room to breathe and they need to just perform. Yeah. So how do you balance that? How can we create that climate that if experimentation is the key for performance and for agility and adaptability for the next, like, five years or ten years, then we need to dedicate that time. Then we need to design that environment. Yeah. So that experimentation, because when we say experimentation innovation, what does it mean? It means messy processes. It means lots of mistakes, half baked ideas. Yeah. This is it. And it’s really different than performance. So I think this is actually that intentionality that you’re discussing that I think that leaders and teams need to really embark on. Yes. Absolutely. 

Rachel Cossar: So as as we kinda come to the end of this of this session, like, what what are you most looking forward to in the next five years? What am I most looking forward to? 

Nogol Madani: I mean, on one side, I’m super excited, I have to say. Yeah. Because I think that since the industrial revolution, we’ve been told that we need to work like machines and that we need to put our emotions. Like like, be away stay away from human beings and just work like machines. Now Yeah. With AI agents right beside us, I think that there is an opportunity for us to really actually work as human beings Yeah. And unlock those human potentials Yeah. If we get it right. Yeah. At the same time, it could be really risky and, like, concerning if we don’t necessarily go that go to, you know, go towards that, like, objective. But I did but I think that I look at AI more as a tool, more as an enabler, more than a replacer. And I think that, yeah, we’re gonna have, like, great opportunities to do with it. And I think that there will be lots of opportunities for female leaders as well. This is actually one of the like, one of the one of my wishes, but I do also believe that, again, those soft human strategic skills, like, they’re the ones that we might just have it a bit more inherently. And, like, I think that it’s if we combine that with AI fluency and, like, you know, literacy, then we can just really somehow lead the path leadership in the next few years. Yep. Absolutely. I think I think that makes a ton of sense. 

Rachel Cossar: I think that’s like, I I try to tend towards the, like, yeah, being more positive about Mhmm. During the outcomes. Right? I think that’s kind of that is the way we move forward in a in a a successful way. But, yeah, there’s always, a counterparty to the positive view of things. But I do I agree. I think it’s really interesting to see the like, I think our ability to communicate with with machines, with AI, with technology, and collaborate with that while developing all of our own skills and knowledge is it it makes for an incredibly dynamic and possibly very efficient new world. Yes. And there are some things that hopefully will be made easier as a result. I think we also have to then be careful of, like, you know, these efficiencies just being replaced with more work, more busy work, more Yes. Right? Whereas in an ideal world, it can be replaced with a little bit more family time, a little bit more hobby time, a little bit more More human. Yeah. You know? Right. Like that. Yes. 

Nogol Madani: I totally agree. I I totally agree with you, but, you know, one concern that I have is that when we’re talking about collaborating with technology, working with technology, like, we still have a long way to build those muscles amongst ourselves as human beings. So I think, like, that intentionality and proactivity around building that cultural infrastructure, it’s really key for us Yeah. To make sure that once we get to the other side, we’re just well equipped with the right tools and right skill sets. And I think that psychological safety could be one of the foundations towards that path for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Rachel Cossar: I mean, it seems like such a basic thing, and yet at the same time, it’s so critical and specific that it takes a lot of effort to really nurture. Right? Exactly. To nurture and maintain it. Exactly. 

Nogol Madani: To implement it, really. Totally agree. Yes. 

Rachel Cossar: Nogol, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing so much about this really important concept. Anything else you’d like to share with the audience, or how can people connect and engage with you? Yes. For sure. 

Nogol Madani: I’m always on LinkedIn, so definitely no go ahead, Danny. They can just, like, find me there. You can check our website at gleefactor.com. We do have a free assessment for, like, future readiness for leaders to see, like, how where they’re standing. And, yeah. You know, I share lots of comments and content because I know that we’re all going through this uncertainty, and I think together through a community, we can actually usually go through these moments, a bit easier and smoother. Wonderful. Awesome. 

Rachel Cossar: Well, thank you again so much for showing up and for sharing so much with our audience. And as always, thanks to our audience for joining. We’ll see you next time. Thank you so much, Rachel.